The "Sonic The Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles" Quest for Music Composer Research

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by T.Q., Nov 18, 2019.

  1. NeoFusionBox

    NeoFusionBox

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    Knuckles' theme from S&K is very unique compared to the others two. It fits with the character.
     
  2. MastaSys

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    Actually I find the final S3 version very fitting for Knuckles, even more than S&K (which for me paint Knuckles as some joke martial artist). It's the full version as a Mid-Boss theme that doesn't fit at all.

    Well thank god for all the costumization options in S3C/S3AIR/etc... That let's me use the pair exclusively for Knuckles, while hearing the most awesome Mid-Boss theme ever in it's rightful place. And everybody else gets their cake too.
     
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  3. Knuckles' S3final theme has a punchy staccato feel to it. It's the most fitting to his character.
     
  4. PhotonSeek

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    Now that I think about it, could the Sonic 10th Anniversary CD only crediting 3 composers be a result of lack of space on the back cover? An illustration of Sonic takes up a lot of room on the bottom right corner, and judging by how they only credited Sawada and Kashima by surname it seems the graphic designer was running out of space but didn't want to decrease the font size nor Sonic.

    Considering the three credited composers have admitted to composing tracks from this selection, it seems like Sega did have full credits on hand and that they weren't just crediting random composers from the game, yet the designer didn't bother to credit each composer for each track.
     
  5. T.Q.

    T.Q.

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    Something non-Sonic related, but something that could be considered for why individual composers weren't credited.

    I'm a fan of TV game show music. There was a popular music production publisher back in the mid-1960s to 1990s called "Score Productions". Some game shows enlisted that company's services to compose the theme music and cues for their shows because it was cheaper than having a live band play it on-the-air. The game show would use the music and cues, and when an episode finishes, the credits would roll.

    It was not common to list the name of the composer(s) whose music was used on the episode. It was usually the music production publisher who would get the billing instead. The music provided would have the credit of "Score Productions". The reason why was usually because if a person or entity's name appears in the credits, that entity would be paid. So in this case, "Score Productions" company got paid. It was then up to "Score Productions" to pay the individual composer(s) who it hired to make the music, based on agreements it had with its composer(s).

    Because the composer(s) went through a music publisher like "Score Productions" to make a living, the composer had their own agreement with "Score Productions" to get paid (and not the TV show production company). The agreement may not have stated a specific obligation to list the specific person who made the music. Exceptions could be made, such as on the TV game show "The Price Is Right" (and some other Mark Goodson game shows of that time), where the composer was listed because the TV producer agreed to list the composer's (e.g. "Edd Kalehoff for Score Productions Inc."), but such exceptions would be on a case-by-case basis.

    So in regards to why Sega is listed as the composer instead of the individual ones, it's probably because "Sega Sound Team" gets the billing, and there's no obligation to list the individual composer. There could be exceptions made (e.g. Jun Senoue because he came forward with himself stating what music he made), if the composer wanted to have their name listed, but there's no obligation to do so. If any of the Japanese composers wanted their names known, they could try stating it to whoever publishes the music CDs, or go through Sega and hope that Sega will honor the composer's request. But it's uncommon to list the individual composers because not much people in the public would pay attention to that detail.

    It was likely different for Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 because the band "Dreams Come True" wasn't working under Sega. So when Sega approached Nakamura, Sega likely had to craft contracts on Nakamura's wishes. If Nakamura wanted his name billed in any credits, Sega had that obligation to do so. Whereas composers approaching Sega and being hired under it didn't have such power to make demands, and so Sega could just bill itself.
     
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  6. sonicthesnot

    sonicthesnot

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    I think we can all agree on the following:

    • Original tracks in the PC version = weak sauce
    • Original tracks in the Genesis version = medium sauce
    • MJ tracks in the Genesis version = BOSS SAUCE
     
  7. Metalwario64

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    No, I disagree. I think the proto tracks are overall the best, and fit in with everything else much better, though I prefer the S3 Complete versions of Ice Cap and the unused track. I do still like the Hard Times Ice Cap a lot though, but I never was a fan of the final Launch Base or Carnival Night (which sounds more like "Circus Night in Clown Hell" in the final), even back in the day.

    I much prefer the proto/S&K miniboss theme, since it's super melodic and sounds amazing, and I think Knuckle's theme from S&K might be my favorite them for him, but I think the proto theme is a pretty good track in its own right.
     
  8. Crappy Blue Luigi

    Crappy Blue Luigi

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    I'm at a weird mix of opinions where I greatly prefer the original Carnival Night over the final and the original Ice Cap over the S3 Complete arrangement... but the final Launch Base over the original, sort of? I'm just not the biggest fan of the tone or melody of the original Launch Base tunes.
     
  9. SystemsReady

    SystemsReady

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    after finally hearing the Genesis renditions in the prototype, I prefer them to the final versions, except for Icecap which I think is equal to the "final".

    I'm kind of shocked - the proto icecap act 1 is at a faster tempo than its midi rendition with a completely different percussion backing. Both acts for the PC version instead match this proto's act 2, which is a bizarre oversight.

    The Genesis version of CNZ Act 2 reminds me heavily of Chrome Gadget's music...
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  10. Naean

    Naean

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    This oddity appears to be a bit of a theme with Sonic & Knuckles Collection, as both of its Death Egg Zone MIDI tracks also use the Act 2 speed.
     
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  11. Ashura96

    Ashura96

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    lmao no way

    CNZ/LBZ MJ team tracks grew old on me quickly. Def prefer their prototype/PC tracks nowadays.
     
  12. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    While I like the beta LBZ, I think the MJ LBZ track is more fitting of a kinda "Final level" slot. The original LBZ doesn't have that same punch to it that the MJ version had, and since Sonic 3 was split in half LBZ needed something a bit extra or it'd be a very anti-climactic zone.

    But the MJ Mini boss theme is fantastic and nothing will ever change my mind on that one.
     
  13. Sid Starkiller

    Sid Starkiller

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    IIRC both acts of what's left of DEZ in the prototype use the Act 2 music, even though both versions are in the ROM. Maybe they really did use this exact build for the music...
     
  14. sonicthesnot

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    The mini-boss, competition menu select, and Stranger in Moscow ending theme were my three favorites.
     
  15. rata

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    I seriously can't see how final launch base is fitting at all, it doesn't give me sense of anything more than wishes to stop it.

    While some can find the proto very cringey with the opening fanfare, it certainly gives a 'this is it' feeling, not as militarised like Nakamura's marches for bosses, not dark as Death Egg (sonic 2), but it does tell you that this is what will seal the adventure. Well, at least until the surprise of finding that the death egg isn't destroyed kicks in (if the original plan could have see the light instead of splitting the game). It's also quite encouraging, so you know you can go through it. + - As you may deduce from this, Mania's favourite theme is Titan Monarch exactly for this reason, it inmediatly gets you to know that this is it, you against the fat man once for all.  

    That's for Act 1 anyways, as Act 2 doesn't really hold up against it.

    And also that's why I don't like the MIDIs at all, because it could have done much more from the tunes rather than trying to badly sound like a bootleg Genesis. Give the intro a proper string arrangement and percussion, as well as more natural instruments where it should, and you could have a true masterpiece of soundtrack.

    --End of rant--
     
  16. NeoFusionBox

    NeoFusionBox

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    Maybe proto' Launch Base song could have been used for a Competition Mode level. Maybe Icecap too, but I really think Act 2 fits a lot for the level.

    Edit: And the original mini-boss theme (S&K) is millions times better than the "MJ" one, for me. The MJ is not dramatic as the S&K version and when it is used for Hidden Palace cutscene, oh man! You know shit is getting real.
     
  17. SystemsReady

    SystemsReady

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    not gonna lie, ever since I was small I've hated the MJ Knuckles/Miniboss tunes. It doesn't fit with the game aesthetically for me. While it's true that unlike with S1, S2, and SCD this was more of a grab bag of songs, they felt coherent as a soundtrack....except for the Knuckles/Miniboss themes, which are sparse percussion-based "tunes" in an OST consisting of great melodies. Also it has never made sense to me to have the miniboss theme match Knuckles instead of matching Eggman when Eggman is clearly the one building them. S3&K gives them coherency.

    (also I absolutely hate the Sonic 3 theme and corresponding 1up and invincibility themes. Just absolutely hate it. Too bright of a composition, the equivalent of putting a bunch of brass instruments in my face and blowing)

    -
    Something I'd also like to bring up that has been nagging at me for a while: earlier in the topic it was mentioned "why get MJ if Nakamura asked too much money?". Think about this way: if Nakamura asked for a princely sum, it could be that Sega went "ha, with that kind of money we can get someone actually known worldwide"...and then tried to, with MJ's team.

    (admittedly it makes me rest easier knowing it was his production team involved and not really MJ himself, and that he was severely disinterested, combined with the "pick and choose" aspect of the OST's development)
    -
    And finally, CNZ Act 1 kinda reminds me of Spring Stadium no? Senoue is credited for the game's OST in the game's credits (at least for S3&K), so it wouldn't be too far of a stretch? It has similar compositional properties and tempo as some of his works in that vein.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  18. sonicthesnot

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  19. MykonosFan

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    sonicthesnot, it seems your post got eaten up while quoting that. :V
     
  20. JcFerggy

    JcFerggy

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    I asked this in another thread but never got an answer, asking it here because music talks;

    As previously mentioned, comparing other tracks in the proto that are in the final, some are different in varying degrees, so its to believed that these PC tracks would be unfinished as well.

    From my limited understanding, the Proto music compositions are slightly different than the PC music, right? Would it be possible to use either the FM or Midi PC tracks, and make a psudo-final versions of these tracks?