The "Sonic The Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles" Quest for Music Composer Research

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by T.Q., Nov 18, 2019.

Choose your favorite soundtrack version:

  1. Sonic The Hedgehog 3 -- Prototype / PC

  2. Sonic The Hedgehog 3 -- Mega Drive / Sega Genesis

  3. Sonic [3] & Knuckles -- Mega Drive / Sega Genesis

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  1. Firippu Maiefusuki

    Firippu Maiefusuki

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    [​IMG][​IMG]

    I think the credit information was added by VGMdb as the letters aren't capitalized and it's listed as "Confirmed composer credits" and only specifically the tracks we know were composed by Drossin, Senoue? and Milpo are listed
     
  2. T.Q.

    T.Q.

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    Ok, I'm convinced with the evidence that's been discovered so far. Both that:

    1. No composer list exists on that 1994 soundtrack (very important, as that VGMdb entry was my source I referred to when composing the table).

    2. Jon Burton's claim has better credence to me, given how ICEKnight found a track listing in the Sonic 3D Blast ROM. Likely a track list exists with Mr. Burton given he was the developer of the game. Also quite importantly, Mr. Burton demonstrated what the unused music he claims sounds like, versus trying to decipher the meaning of written words.

    So I've made adjustments to the Wiki listings, until new evidence surfaces.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2020
  3. Shakidna

    Shakidna

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    "Rings and Diamonds Land" sounds exactly like the silly names Jun would later put on all the Adventure/SA2 tracks.
     
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  4. Naean

    Naean

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    I've read through this entire thread up to this point, and didn't see anyone else make this comparison. Apologies if this has in fact has been pointed out prior, either here or elsewhere on Sonic Retro.

    I'm surprised that I haven't seen this being mentioned more often, but there are some striking similarities between some portions of the Competition Mode Menu and Carnival Night Zone Act 2 tracks from the 3 November 1993 beta.

    The tracks have various similarities, but the most notable ones for me are the melodies between these time stamps respectively:


    0:08 to 0:21.




    0:36 to 0:50.




    Now, it's important that we don't fall into the trap of marking likely/probable things as definitive fact when there are gaps in official confirmations and whatnot...

    ... That said, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised whatsoever if it turns out the same person(s) worked on both of these music tracks; I very heavily believe that to be the case. Again though, this is just a strong hunch of mine. It's ultimately still speculation, but nevertheless I think these notable similarities definitely shouldn't go without mention. I feel the melodies shared are almost too similar to be coincidental, although that is indeed always a possibility.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2020
  5. Shakidna

    Shakidna

    Rehash Rampage Member
    These are so stylistically similar to Hydrocity Act 2 so I'm very confident they are arranged by Masayuki Nagao

    Also Launch Base (proto) Act 2, to a lesser extent. Nagao supposedly did all of the Act 2 arrangements, but I find that questionable.
     
  6. Laura

    Laura

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    I think this kind of thing is extremely speculative and misleading. We aren't talking about composers like Jim Steinman where you can tell it's a song by him from a million miles away. I would be very wary of making connections between songs in this way unless there are shared melodies (like in Ice Cap and Crystal Egg) or unique style (the MJ team with use of vocal samples when none of the other songs have them).

    Let's not forget when everyone thought Ice Cap was based on Smooth Criminal because of musical similarities.
     
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  7. Ch1pper

    Ch1pper

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    You're saying blind association is bad (which I agree with) and then mention Crystal Egg and proto Ice Cap. Was that outright confirmed somewhere? 'Cause I feel like it's the same thing. I get how someone could make the connection in a general sense, with part of the melody and the tempo/rhythm, but something about it still doesn't scream at me as obviously as it does with you/many others.

    I can also see what Shakidna is saying too. I won't claim it's utterly obvious or anything, but the ways the melodies and chords are structured and play off of each other (which always struck me as familiar but I could never place it) is very similar to Hydrocity Act 2. I'd argue it's stronger evidence than IC/CE, as both use the Gen/MD console itself as opposed to 16-bit HC and 8-bit CE, so the comparison is clearer and easier to make.

    That said, I also don't feel comfortable saying definitively one way or another. They're all just neat things to notice, is all. :)
     
  8. Laura

    Laura

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    A connection between Crystal Egg and Ice Cap isn't confirmed but both are obviously sharing the same background melody. Similar to Ice Cap and Hard times, which also hasn't been confirmed by anyone, but both songs obviously share the same melody.

    Two songs sharing the same melody is very different to 'I think these songs sound similar'.
     
  9. D.A. Garden

    D.A. Garden

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    I cannot hear a connection between Crystal Egg and Ice Cap. I've listened to them both back to back many times as a result of this thread, and it's just not happening. I agree with ch1pper; there's no evidence to say they are written by the same person. The same goes for many other comparisons made before it.

    However, the Ice Cap / Hard Times connection is a tricky one because this exists: [​IMG]
    I own a copy myself, and it's not only uncannily familiar with the the foreground melody, but also the backing track. I think this is much more likely to be a thing they know/are aware of, but can't just say. Would be funny if it was just a coincidence, though.
     
  10. Laura

    Laura

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    Essentially, the melody from 0:17 is almost exactly the same as the background beat in proto Ice Cap Act 1. You have to look out for it, but when you hear it, it's unmistakable. The melody has been changed slightly (sped up) but it's definitely the same.

    Hard Times hasn't been confirmed by Buxer, it's only been commented upon by Fervor Records, who probably aren't interested in it besides using the memes to sell some copies.
     
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  11. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

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    Is it even possible for the Hard Times similarity to be a coincidence? I think we can safely assume that IceCap is Hard Times even ignoring the limited Jetzons record. I would imagine that Buxer hasn't confirmed it for legal reasons if anything, but it's incredibly obvious.
     
  12. I mean Brad Buxer was a member of the Jetzons back in the day (he was their keyboardist) so there’s no need to confirm anything when the connection between all 3 parties (Buxer, Hard Times, and Sonic 3) is right there.. but I believe he mentioned the cue in that Huffington Post article from 2016.
     
  13. The Joebro64

    The Joebro64

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    I thought Buxer confirmed that he had indeed based IceCap on Hard Times. I could be talking out of my ass, but I could've sworn it was said somewhere.
     
  14. The Other RaFaél

    The Other RaFaél

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    Not to ask a silly question, but are you listening to the proto version of Ice Cap? The Final version for sure has nothing in common with Crystal Egg, but as for the Proto version, I'm definitely reminded of Crystal Egg. The rhythm is different, but they share notes and "chord" progressions; the fact that they are both in the same key also makes it easier to spot the similarities.

    Could be complete coincidence, but I definitely hear it there, especially after listening to the specific parts Laura shared.
     
  15. D.A. Garden

    D.A. Garden

    & Knuckles Member
    Well that would help that I'm comparing the right tracks, wouldn't it?

    I've tried this again with the prototype IceCap track, and I can hear the resemblance. I wouldn't say they're exactly the same, but they are eerily familiar enough that it sounds likes a continuation of the same track. But it's just one backing melody, which is far from being the same track. I would say that it's more than possible that both tracks had the same composer, but again, we have nothing to confirm it (at least, not right now).
     
  16. Laura

    Laura

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    Oh yeah. Proto Ice Cap is a different song to Crystal Egg. All I'm saying is that Ice Cap is very clearly built upon Crystal Egg. But it has been turned into a new song.

    Also, I'm not saying that the Hard Times link is a coincidence, just that the shared melody connection is enough evidence to link them, even without a confirmation.

    EDIT - Never mind, I'm wrong. Buxer says Ice Cap was based on Hard Times on Huffington Post lol.

    What I'm trying to say is that unless we have something like a shared melody which is an obvious link (Hard Times/Crystal Egg) we should be careful to say 'this song sounds similar).

    I mean, here's a story. I told someone that Blue Spheres music was recycled from SEGASonicBros and sent them a link. They told me they could kind of hear the resemblance and I thought 'wtf, they are exactly the same song?-. Turned out I sent the wrong link, but they read somefhing into it anyway. Saying two songs are similar jn chord progression, tone, atmosphere, style etc is incredibly vague and dependent on listener.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2020
  17. Ch1pper

    Ch1pper

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    That's my point though: I can hear vague similarities, I'll give you that. But "the melody is almost exactly the same as the background beats" isn't the same thing as Hard Times' chord structure, bass, chorus melody, all things that are being used in final Ice Cap. Like, it's factually undeniable. But Crystal Egg and proto Ice Cap... I can't hear anything beyond a vague similarity. I'm sorry. :(
     
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  18. Metalwario64

    Metalwario64

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    Exactly. The progression is similar, but the notes are distinctly different.