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The "Sonic The Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles" Quest for Music Composer Research

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by T.Q., Nov 18, 2019.

Choose your favorite soundtrack version:

  1. Sonic The Hedgehog 3 -- Prototype / PC

  2. Sonic The Hedgehog 3 -- Mega Drive / Sega Genesis

  3. Sonic [3] & Knuckles -- Mega Drive / Sega Genesis

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. The Joebro64

    The Joebro64

    There's no way the proto music is from MJ's team. It sounds nothing like his style, unlike the tracks that made it into the final game.
  2. Mastered Realm

    Mastered Realm

    A green crystal Member
    1997 is like 4 years after the release of Sonic 3. People would be more than crazy about royalties even back then.
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  3. Loop


    Pure of Heart. Dumb of Ass. Member
    Stop speaking out of your ass, please. Read the thread. We've debunked and analysed this time and time again.
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2020
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  4. SystemsReady


    I Have No Idea What I'm Doing At Any Given Moment Member
    The Twin Cities
    trying to not fall asleep while writing Selenium tests
    I concur; I'm pretty sure CNZ Act 1 has touches of Senoue in it (the classic 50s rock and roll sound, which he also uses in Spring Stadium Zone in 3D Blast), and LBZ Act 1 uses his production style for the lead synth (the "meowing cat" sound derided on Sonic 4).
  5. sonicthesnot


    I always thought the original CNZ music was Senoue-like as well. Sounds like it is something right out of 3D blast.

    The revelation that MJ tracks were inserted at the last minute was so huge, yet all it did was create more questions and uncertainty than there was before. It's really maddening. The only thing I've concluded is the whole 1993-1994 MJ trial probably had nothing to do with his music being in the game, as they actually put his music in the game in the middle of the criminal trial. So when Roger Hector saying MJ's music was pulled at the last minute makes no sense, as it was actually put in at the last minute.
  6. RetroJordan91


    The REAL Blue Sphere Guy Member
    I agree with you on the MJ stuff.. there had to have been some sort of miscommunication at the time and someone didn’t get the message to remove any trace of MJ from the final game..

    I’m sure this has been brought up before that the proto tracks were not polished enough to be used in the final game so they just went with what was complete at the time
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2020
  7. RDNexus


    Now that I think about it...
    Sonic CD never got its OST MIDI'd when ported to PC, right?
    Then, why has such thing happened to S&K Collection alone?
    Is it possible that by that time there was already legal issues?
    And they MIDI'd the OST to put it in a "grey line" or something?
  8. RetroJordan91


    The REAL Blue Sphere Guy Member
    I believe the sound quality of the Genesis tracks might not have translated well if they left them as is so they had to “MIDIfy” each track in order to sound decent enough on the PC.. CD’s OST had no problems because the SEGA CD was already capable of playing CD quality music so the PC could easily handle it
  9. SuperSnoopy


    I like Sonic Advance Member
    Lyon, France
    Improving my art and studying Japanese
    Sonic CD's music was already on cd, a format used by PC games as well.
    Sonic 3's music uses the Megadrive sound chip to produce the music, something PCs at the time couldn't do.
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2020
  10. RDNexus


    Oops... Forgot that detail... xD
  11. Mastered Realm

    Mastered Realm

    A green crystal Member
    That's not true, actually. Most PCs at the time had FM capability, that's how Megarace (1993!) had it's amazing soundtrack. It's all rendered in real time using FM and sounds better than the MD ever did.

    The answer is: they went with midis because it made sense to their workflow. Maybe they didn't have the tools to create good sounding FM music. Or maybe it was just a bad decision! Who knows?
  12. Even if that was true, one thing they could easily do is just record the music, convert it to a format a PC could understand at the time, and play it.

    Even so, while most PCs had FM capabilities, not all did. So what I guess SEGA did was make it MIDI so most PCs, regardless of midi soundchip, can listen to the audio of the game. Soundblaster will still be the best, though
  13. Shakidna


    Rehash Rampage Member

    Does this prototype contain the music credits like the final game? Because it has Slot Machine Bonus as a placeholder.

    I strongly suspect it's a Jun Senoue song anyway. The chord progression is very much his style and it being used here alongside the other placeholders which are all Jun's suggests it may be his.
  14. T.Q.


    The Sims 2, Tim Drake [Robin] Member
    Yup it was already found by ICEknight on post #14 in this thread.
  15. Shakidna


    Rehash Rampage Member
    That's for the final game, with no trace of the Slot Machine Bonus song. I'm asking if composer data exists in the prototype.

    It probably doesn't, or else it'd be found by now, but thought I'd ask anyway.
  16. Firippu Maiefusuki

    Firippu Maiefusuki

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  17. Beamer the Meep

    Beamer the Meep

    Better than Sonic Genesis... Member
    I might've missed it after looking back through the thread, but why is there an assumption that Cirocco Jones is a major reason for the potential legal dispute with the music MJ's team did? He's been fairly open with fans about his work while Bobby Brooks's responded with "you can contact my lawyer". If anything, I would assume the latter is the source of problems.
  18. Firippu Maiefusuki

    Firippu Maiefusuki

    Perhaps I should've clarified the meaning of the 3 columns. Brad Buxer said that the MJ team made 41 tracks (or, as he says it, cues) for the game. If we get the entire Sonic 3 tracklist and remove all tracks that might have been carried over from Sonic 1, or recomposed in house by SEGA (things like the main theme, invincibility, act clear, and so on) we get exactly 41. My theory is that 31 tracks made by the MJ team went unused, and we don't know much about them at all, apart from the fact that Hydrocity and Marble Garden were composed by Cirocco. 10 tracks (CNZ, ICZ, LBZ, Competition Mode, Knuckles' theme, Miniboss, and credits) from the 41 made it into the game, while the other tracks were from the patch up made by SEGA. The lock-on column is tracks added in S&K.

    What I'm saying is that he did compose Hydrocity and Marble Garden, but the tracks were replaced for the final game by the 4 tracks that I presume might have been made by Masanori Hikichi, Miyoko Takaoka and Masayuki Nagao, as Roger Hector wanted.

    [Edit: Recap on Roger Hector's statements: Both he and Brad Buxer said that MJ's team composed the entire soundtrack. Hector also stated that all of the tracks were never heard by the general public. What I understand from this, is that Hector commanded them to replace the tracks, but those 10 tracks still for some reason made it in. A possible explanation is that those 10 were made by Buxer (we know at least 5/10 were made by him) and seeing as Buxer was more independent than the others, being part of the Jetzons in the 80s and also primarily working with other artists, they thought that those 10 could be put in]
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2020
  19. Firippu Maiefusuki

    Firippu Maiefusuki

    To clear up any confusion, on the right is a color-coded table with the composers of the tracks from different versions of the game that we have
  20. The Other RaFaél

    The Other RaFaél

    I'm just a guy and a man and a dude and I'm hungry Oldbie
    Detroit, Michigan, USA
    Fatherhood, husband...hood and a few mobile apps.
    Strictly my opinion, but I suppose that could explain the whole "The water" and "Levels 2 & 3" stuff on his old credits list. With the way his resume looks, it wouldn't surprise me if he simply made his contributions to the game and kept it pushing with his other projects. So if he never took the time to play or otherwise revisit the game, maybe he was under the impression that his work made it in (and maybe it did, but just not for those levels). Again, just my opinion.

    I too found it odd that he's become the scapegoat for the legal issues when he's been one of the most forthcoming, it seems. Being that Brooks also pretty much told us to get fucked, it would make more sense the culprit would be him. But yet again, that's just me.