The "Sonic The Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles" Quest for Music Composer Research

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by T.Q., Nov 18, 2019.

  1. Blastfrog

    Blastfrog

    Frog blast the vent core! Member
    Yes and yes. Some of the tracks are in a different key (like LBZ1 and CNZ1 IIRC), and I think I've heard different notes in LBZ2 as well (sometimes it goes down when the PC version plays the same note). And I don't see any reason these proto tracks can't be ripped and modified to closer resemble the compositional changes of the PC tracks. I have extremely limited experience in making SMPS music, but there are people like Valleybell out there that can work SMPS like a charm.
     
  2. Shakidna

    Shakidna

    Rehash Rampage Member
    I am unsure if the PC midis are earlier or later than the proto tracks. Seems like a mixture of both. Sky Sanctuary and Mushroom Hill Act 1 midi are very obviously early. But others are "touched up" to match the final compositions. Launch Base's melody differences seem to imply that the Genesis proto version is later, and the midi is the original demo. Genesis proto is more complex.

    My theory is that when they touched up the demos for S&K Collection, they simply listened to the final tracks for comparison (though they got sloppy and missed a few tracks in midi as opposed to FM Synthesizer). When it came to touching up the pre-MJ tracks, there were no final versions to compare to, so they left them in their original demo state.

    Also keep in mind how late this prototype was, these are probably as far as these songs got. This is further supported by Ice Cap (proto) never getting a proper Act 2.
     
  3. rata

    rata

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    Trying to be useful somehow.
    MIDIs are not original demos of nothing, it's just a better way of listening the music, with proper percussion and a whole lot of instrumentation- well, if it were done properly-.
     
  4. Shakidna

    Shakidna

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    Whatever keyboard/workstation the composers used outputted midi. In the case of Sky Sanctuary and Mushroom Hill Act 2, the midi files in the collection are identical to these early renditions in the proto.

    They probably sounded something like this:
     
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  5. Despatche

    Despatche

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    Good video. Most old game music was composed like this. Usually you'd have a sound programmer come in to basically arrange the songs for the hardware. This made composing music for CDDA much easier than it would have been, as you could just record what the composers were already doing at a studio.

    The PC versions of tracks from the final MD version do sound like the proto, which makes the differences in the unique proto tracks all the more interesting. Maybe there's another Sonic 3 proto somewhere that sounds more like the PC version?

    A bit off-topic, but that video also reveals that Sonic 3D did not have the CD-esque alliterative names at first (just like CD itself!), as Green Grove was originally called "Green Alley".
     
  6. Vinnie

    Vinnie

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    I have the FluidSynth soundfonts installed, makes S3&K Collection sound fantastic to me.
     
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  7. Ben2k9

    Ben2k9

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    its probably worth mentioning that Marble Garden, whilst being credited to Takaoka, sounds a lot like another Jetzones song "when the sun comes down"



    I made a rough mashup of this and MGZ a few years back



    whilst its not as clear as Hard Times/ICZ its certainly close.

    Oh, and as for MJ samples, the "go" sounds like it was sampled from Speed Demon

     
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  8. XCubed

    XCubed

    Will Someday Own a Rent-A-Center Oldbie
    Ice Cap Act 2 sounds very unfinished. I haven't played the game myself, but I believe Acts 1 & 2 are available in the soundtest, while only one is used in both acts of the prototype. This also explains the lack of care in the percussion of the final PC Act 1 and 2 as it doesn't change unlike every other Act 1 to 2 percussion differentiation.

    CNZ Act 1 on the otherhand.....absolutely incredible how much they messed that up for the PC version. It actually sounds like it properly belongs in Sonic 3 unlike Carnival Nightmare Barrel Jam Zone. It makes Act 2 that much more menacing too.
     
  9. Actually both are used.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2019
  10. Blastfrog

    Blastfrog

    Frog blast the vent core! Member
    I've noticed the same thing before, but these are definitely not the same composition. It would sure fit MGZ though! Would be cool if it were arranged as a Sonic 3 style song, actually I'd like to see a lot of Jetzons music remixed like that.

    The fact that MGZ's not one of the tracks that are different in PC/beta makes me doubt that it had anything to do with MJ/associates' team.
     
  11. XCubed

    XCubed

    Will Someday Own a Rent-A-Center Oldbie
    Thanks for the clarification! There are too many YouTube novices running around touting there's no difference between the Acts for the music, thus only posting one out of the two.
     
  12. PhotonSeek

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    Yeah, same. I would do it although I currently have very little experience with making SMPS music. (I could try making concept remixes though)

    It's most likely a coincidence. There is the possibility Takaoka was sent this track and told to make a track inspired by it, but that sounds unlikely.
     
  13. Shakidna

    Shakidna

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    Ice Cap Act 1 is completely missing snare drums.

    And when I say proper Act 2, I mean one that isn't the same composition with swapped instruments.
     
  14. Crappy Blue Luigi

    Crappy Blue Luigi

    mighty is my son. thanks Member
    Ice Cap's Act 1 music doesn't not sound unfinished, but I don't think it's "missing" snares. The sound it achieves without snare hits gives it a more relaxed, anticipatory feel, which makes the addition of the snare drum in Act 2's music feel more contrasting and impactful. It kinda reminds me of the Planet Sonata 1 music in Ristar, which is very low-key and open in its sound because of a lower emphasis on percussion.

    It's very possible that the track was intended to have snare hits in it, and that this was fixed for the PC release, but it's also possible that wasn't the case, and that the PC devs added snare hits to it because they assumed it was supposed to have them. After all, there are other places the PC renditions of the tracks don't match up to these versions, and considering how both Acts of Carnival Night sound here, I think there could've been some regression or changes made to them specifically in developing that version.

    This is all speculation, anyway, but I'm gonna die on this hill.
     
  15. PhotonSeek

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    Welp, it's been over a week since I messaged Sawada and I haven't heard back from him. Considering he seems to spend a lot of time listening to music on said platform, it's likely he ignored me. To be fair, I get why he may have ignored me: the prototype was supposed to be confidential and he may not want to risk breaking a NDA by even discussing it. For now we'll have to stick to making educated guesses.
     
  16. sonicthesnot

    sonicthesnot

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    Wow I wasn't aware of that! Obviously not smoking gun evidence but the feel of the bass line, the rhythm guitar, and xylophone embellishments are so similar to Marble Garden Zone... good stuff
     
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  17. Ben2k9

    Ben2k9

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    thanks, yeah its not exact, but the timing and the overall feel of the song is very similar.
     
  18. McAleeCh

    McAleeCh

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    As a counterpoint - Marble Garden Zone and Sandopolis Zone do pretty much the same thing re: basically just swapping instruments for their Act 2 mixes, don't they?

    Proto IceCap Zone Act 1 does sound basic, but only really because of the lack of much percussion. Personally I could quite radily see them having thought a quieter version would suit the mostly cavern-based Act 1, with a fuller-sounding remix reserved for the more open Act 2 with its mix of outdoor and indoor sections.

    The Act 1 track seems a bit out of place during the mountain section at the start, but we don't know if that was always part of the stage's concept or simply added later to facilitate the planned level transition from Flying Battery Zone - we know they'd thought of that by this point, as even in its very unfinished state in this build Flying Battery Act 2 ends with the bust-out-through-the-door section, even if it's non-functional at this point. By contrast, whatever the Carnival Night to Flying Battery transition was supposed to be it seems completely unimplemented at this point, as from what I've seen Carnival Night Act 2 contains no evidence of a planned transition and Flying Battery Act 1 begins indoors in this build, suggesting they may have designed the stages first and then modified them to accommodate transitions later.

    Incidentally, going back to Flying Battery/IceCap, it's interesting there's no summit to the mountain in this build - this is presumably because in the final it exists so Sonic has somewhere to pick up a snowboard from, whereas (per the Sonic Jam Official Guide comments) in the original he'd be snowboarding on the door he bursts through at the end of Flying Battery. I wonder if he'd just have dropped from the sky already riding it if the sequence had been completed as intended?
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  19. Despatche

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    I've seen game composers make songs that are very specifically modeled after other songs many times, especially back in this era. They typically don't do it maliciously, they do it because they like those songs and want to do a little shoutout.

    Let me restate that nothing else in the game sounds at all like the MJ Team (why not) songs, so it's pretty obvious which songs are done by Sega here. It doesn't make sense to single out something like Marble Garden because it may or may not be modeled after this or that other song. The composer may just simply like that particular song... or were even told to make a song like it, that happens a lot too!

    I thought that Sonic Adventure with its heavy rock influence would have set the record straight about all this, but I guess not.
     
  20. muteKi

    muteKi

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    Honestly I'd say Marble Garden has more Headhunters-era Herbie Hancock inspiration than anything by Buxer