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The Sonic Frontiers *SPOILER* Thread (With Unmarked Spoilers)

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by MykonosFan, Sep 29, 2022.

  1. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    The thing is, I don't think there is a way to skip it in a way the game allows. Going by your own logic earlier, I'd have to break the game to skip it.

    And it'd be one thing if the game committed to the idea that you need to build up experience to take on the boss, but you don't have to. You can just as easily beat it with none as you can with maxed out. The game wants to give you the freedom to "play how you want" but punishes you for doing that by making the boss insufferable to fight against. I mean, not like I can't see why that wouldn't equally annoy people to make Sonic not able to beat a Super-titan if they're not experienced enough. But that kinda just emphasizes why I think these RPG ideas and Sonic don't really go together, so it's a larger criticism of Frontiers as a whole.

    Admittedly I don't think I'd care about any of this if the boss actually looked fun to fight against and the player didn't look like they were in a wrestling match with the camera. But I digress. Maybe it's not as bad as it looks and the person playing just doesn't know what they're doing. But also, you know, maybe it is!

    I think it just comes back around to how I never really wanted Sonic to be a beat em up or based on technical stuff like building up numbers in the first place, which only magnifies the strength of my complaints. Not that I can't tolerate them existing at all, but any issues with them just gives me more reason to be annoyed it's there lol.
     
  2. FunkySpaceAlien

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    My argument is that I find it kind of hard to make a definitive statement on the Super Sonic section because we aren't supposed to see this section in the demo, and perhaps even reached this at level 1. It makes me curious about how the reaction would be if we were to see this done usually first? Y'know, with all the stat upgrades and whatnot.

    On the topic of speedrunning. I'd say that part of speedrunning is figuring out the ideal route to play through the game while doing it fast. I watched a BoTW speedrun and that involves the player having to go out of their way to get some items instead of gunning directly to the final boss. Without those, it'll take them longer overall to beat the game.

    Another game I like to watch speedruns of is Kingdom Hearts 2. There's a category where they play the whole game on the hardest difficulty and also use an ability where you cannot gain level-ups at all, effectively beating the whole game on level 1. That's a heavily combat-focused game with tons of bosses, so it's really about learning how to deal with each enemy as efficiently as possible.

    Even the prompt that appeared when you become Super Sonic makes mentions about "the key to battle is efficiently deal heavy damage." The footage we saw is the player just mashing the attack button and not really moving around that much. Maybe there's more to it that we aren't seeing. We might be able to use the cyloop during it or possibly being some weak spots you can hit to deal massive damage, who knows?

    Idunno man, I'm not so sure about my argument because we don't know shit about this game, lol. It's why I don't post here as much anymore because I feel it's a bunch of "Maybe"s and making strong accusations, like everyone arguing if the cyberspace levels are reusing level themes or not during the Summer Game Fest stuff. I find it hard to debate since I'm afraid of looking kinda dumb if I'm proving wrong on details later down the line.

    For me, I'm gonna wait and see but I also do get the concern too since everything's so vague at the moment. I apologize if this does come off as me being part of the "Defense Force", or whatever, lol. I have a normal level of excitement for this game and I can see myself having fun with it despite some of its shortcomings.

    However, I will agree that the camera is bad. I don't get why it keeps getting so up close to Sonic's ass, lol
     
  3. Sneekie

    Sneekie

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    I genuinely cannot see the boss fight as so insufferable that being allowed to beat the game faster by challenging it earlier is a "punishment." The boss fight itself is not long even at level 1. The amount of time you save by going at it level 1 is staggering, more than worth it for the people who would play like this in he first place.

    Even with the qualms you raised besides that, I just can't see it. Even if I didn't think the boss was fine enough, I just can't see it. I cannot see that as such a "punishment" that I wouldn't want the freedom it entails or the RPG system. Certainly not to the level that I think it doesn't work for Sonic.
     
  4. charcoal

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    You get punished for underleveling in any Sonic game with levels, no?

    Go ahead and try to complete Unleashed without upgrading the Werehog or Hedgehog. You can do it, but you won’t have a fun time.

    It’s not at all unexpected that a boss fight would drag on if you went in at level one in any game.
     
  5. RikohZX

    RikohZX

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    Considering the circumstances I feel like the field bosses will probably account for level progression making it easier, but the big island end bosses won't care too much. What little we've seen of Super Sonic seems pretty isolated in its own little gameplay sections.
     
  6. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    Even if you're "saving time" when speedrunning you've made another aspect of the game an extremely unfun slog. I don't think that's terribly balanced for the people who want to mostly go fast and/or optimize their runs. Feel like these sort of matters should be based around skill and boss encounters based on difficulty, but that again defeats the purpose of the ideas they mixed in with Sonic this game where you can "do what you want" and also be approachable to small kids. Bringing me back around to my initial point that I'm not sure these ideas gel all that well.

    Aye, but I can. I have a much different threshold of what I look for in Sonic than you seem to. And that's where we go our separate ways on it, no? You think it's fine, I think it's rubbish. It is what it is.

    I used to say to people all the time that folks give Unleashed a bad rap, because upgrading the Werehog's movement and combat made the game way more fun than the lumbering, repetitive slog it is at base level. But over the years I realized no one should have to work to make a game fun. It'd be one thing if any of this were about difficulty and learning to meet a standard to pass, but Werehog is never hard and this Frontiers boss you can beat with base stats, obviously.

    They're just incredibly tedious, because it's not as much a matter of where or how you hit them, and more how many times you hit them. The only distinction between a "skilled" and "unskilled" player is how much of a sponge the game decides the enemy is. Which I don't really fancy in Sonic the Hedgehog, series known for enemies that go out in 1 hit minimum, 4-6 hits tops.

    Also you can definitely have a fun time without leveling daytime Sonic in Unleashed. I've let him be in most of my runs (in favor of giving all the exp to Werehog)! Playing without a bigger boost bar just becomes a matter of skill in boost management and sharper reaction times. You can Git Gud in those levels and get nearly the same spotless runs and fast times in those stages without needing it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2022
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  7. The Deleter

    The Deleter

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    If the damage is minimal at lower levels, that will be just additional tedium on it's own. Not exactly crazy about the thought of indulging in that itself.

    But if the combat system offers any depth in terms of more powerful attacks and combos, they will shine brightest in speedrun scenarios like that. Not exactly sure how deep a system with only one attack button can go, but with the directional stick determining some attacks, it might be interesting to see.
     
  8. charcoal

    charcoal

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    I feel we have a fundamental disagreement, then. I find it extremely rewarding to level up and mow through enemies progressively faster and faster, I think "working to make a game fun" is a great part of many games, provided it's not JRPG levels of grindiness. It's exactly what excites me about the upgrade system for this game.
    I've never actually avoided upgrading the daytime stats, only the nighttime ones, cuz without enough speed upgrade you can't take certain shortcuts, like Sonic not being able to outrun the pillars in Arid Sands Daytime, so I never did it on purpose. Maybe I'll do that the next time I play the game.
     
  9. Azookara

    Azookara

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    I find it fun in some games too, but I think there's a time and place for it. I just don't find Sonic to be the place, nor Frontiers to be the time, haha.
     
  10. Wraith

    Wraith

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    Working to make a game fun is cool when we're talking practicing movement tech or planning an optimal route through the level. Not so much when the boss takes less damage because you chose to approach a Sonic game like a Sonic game and progress as fast as possible.

    What hack N slashes have you played where the bosses are allowed to just eat the camera like this? Genuinely curious. The most acclaimed ones take a more passive approach to camera work and size enemies appropriately.
     
  11. Sneekie

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    You're saying the fun and benefits of speedrunning the game is invalided, because a single boss fight (five, at least) because very, very slightly more tedious than normal in exchange for beating the game in a fraction of the time, but I can't agree. I vastly prefer this in every way. At least for an Open Zone Sonic game.

    Also, I feel like it's important to point out that not only are Super Sonic fights usually as tedious and repetitive, if not more, but you don't have the option to, say, increase Sonic's attack power or have an actual moveset lol.

    Kingdom Hearts, where the camera is played around with a lot, you can absolutely be hit by an attack that was off-screen, or be pushed into a corner and rely only on your sense of timing and context while Sora fades into the background.

    The very first boss of KHIII is a perfect example.



    Look how many times Sora gets hit by projectiles you flat out can't see at that angle. Frontiers is less egregious because the titan has a humongous wind-up.

    Mind you that I don't think it's bad here--it's teaching you not to rely on having everything in view. If you want to beat bosses in this game, you absolutely have to learn to be prepared to block or dodge.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2022
  12. The Deleter

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    The most obvious and honestly most egregious one would be Transformers Devastation, which features colossi bosses that lack weak point design completely. You either attack the feet while sound alerts and attack circles convey any incoming attacks, or attempt to mid-air attack the chest for a more visible point of view of the fight. Wonderful 101 featured a Jergingha phase with multiple weak points over the body, requiring you to close the distance to land combos on; the attacks would largely adjust depending on where you were located at, but still featured some form of off-camera anticipation for other attacks. And MGR obviously has the initial approach of the first Ray battle under its belt.

    There are brief moments of the bosses eating the camera in Bayo games, like the water vortex phase of Sapienta iirc, but in comparison, usually the more free-form bosses/phases instead largely focus on one singular weak point alone, either railroaded by the camera or heavily suggested by it, and take advantage of that singular perspective with the visible attacks the boss deals out. Sonic VS Giganta isn't railroaded into the singular weak point by the game itself, so it ends up being closer to the Devastator/Menosaur bosses in player options/chance of occurring, but it also notably features that exact weak point design that allows the camera to focus on what it needs to, with how the head is designed and reacts to the player. As a result it lies strictly in the middle of how it's designed between Platinum's less acclaimed and most acclaimed, imo.
     
  13. foXcollr

    foXcollr

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    If they speedran the demo and got to a boss they weren't even supposed to access while intentionally not making use of ANY of the game' mechanics beyond mashing the basic melee button, I really don't think it's that complicated. You can't really just say "but the game encourages you to beat it fast", because... no it doesn't. It encourages you to MOVE fast because Sonic is a fast character with fast movement, not bash your head into a wall and pretend you're doing an Any% on GDQ for your first playthrough. The game very strongly encourages exploration, as many people have said, and most of the impressions we've seen so far have said they spent quite a bit of time just going to places off in the distance and doing various challenges and puzzles. This person's sole mission was to get as far as possible in the cheesiest way possible in the shortest amount of time.

    Idk I honestly am not worried about this looking boring or grindy yet, considering they chose to fight a Lynel with a stick. Maybe the normal fight will be dogshit, but I'm just not worried about it yet.
     
  14. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    Classic Eggman art Member
    If/when I get a new PC I'll try to show throught YouTube/streaming, but I basically don't like to think when I play (not counting character planning or puzzles, just action gameplay). One of the reasons I fell in love with Sonic is how much of it I could play by instinct, and my natural feel is not getting anchored to enemies, but to be able to move and look freely. This was noticeable in the original PSO because my favourite weapon was the partisan, the one with the widest and fastest attacks, and because the lock-on was automatic and only when attacking, which was shit for long range stuff but very useful for melee attacks. In PSO2, I go with whirlwind attacks and move a lot back and forth between enemies, especially in NGS, but my favourite class in the base game was the luster, flying from one enemy to the other and using alternate attacks to change height in mid-air.

    To link this with the current conversation, I don't think this kind of gameplay is totally out of place in a Sonic game, but I do think we risk to find here the grindiness of japanese games and another case of what Heroes had about enemies that take more hits than what would be fun to spam. I think going around the boss to annoy it and find an open to hit hard and quick can work and is Sonic-esque, staying permanently in front of its face and press a button until it falls is not but happens a lot in PSO2.

    Either way, I'm tired of complaints about this on both sides, but not because people don't have the right to complain or arguments to support their POV, but because it reminds me a bit of the wild internet out there where you can't say anything without someone pointing out you shouldn't say that, or engaging in arguments that don't deserve your energy and effort. A lot of things in this game can look "Whoa!" or "Urgh!" at the same time for different people, and probably both sides are right, but it's certainly perplexing that most of this discussion comes from leaked playthroughs of random people; while I honestly can't wait to play this, other people can wait until I or any other seasoned and nuanced Sonic player tries it and give our impressions. Easy example: I trust more Mr.Mechanic's or Starduster's opinion without watching their gameplay than anything else posted here that I read/watched.

    But there's another question (more in fact) still in the air that we haven't discussed in a while and it's already showing its face in recent comments: do you see Frontiers as a Sonic game (example: Sonic Adventure), a game with Sonic in it (example: Smash Bros.), or a game where Sonic is absolutely irrelevant and has nothing to do with the actual game (example: Sonic Pinball Party)? Do you like or hate it aside of Sonic's relevance in it, or does Sonic presence change your perception of it?

    As I said before, I see this as a game with Sonic in it, but a kind of game I like regardless, so having Sonic touches in it is nice for me.
     
  15. PhazonHopper

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    That Super Sonic part was hilariously bad lmao, I was floored when I scrolled down to see everyone staining their trousers over it. That thing took infinitesimally small amounts of damage from Sonic's attacks and had like ten billion HP. It was soooooooo coooooooooooool when Sonic ran into it and big yellow fists punched him, and then the part where Sonic ran into it and big yellow fists punched him? But then, of course, the part where Sonic ran into him and big yellow fists punched him.

    Hype!!!

    I think it's even funnier they couldn't even bother to put together an original level for the very first bit of gameplay you experience.
     
  16. Sneekie

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    I'm about as surprised at people having particularly high expectations of Super Sonic boss battles when literally every other (and I do mean every single one) Super Sonic fight in the series can be summarized as "run into the enemy really quickly."

    This one at least has a functional moveset and combo potential (and keep in mind the player in the footage went in with a level 1 Sonic and no extra combat skills).

    But there was already a spat about this, so.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2022
  17. charcoal

    charcoal

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    We already went over this. The player in the video is literally at level 1 of their combat upgrade, of course it’s gonna be a slog.
     
  18. Blue Spikeball

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    I think it's fairly obvious that this isn't a traditional 3d Sonic game nor is meant to be played as such. It's more in the mold of BOTW, which is just like this. If you want you can just run straight to the final boss near the beginning of the game, without leveling up Link or doing the campaign. And just like here, it will take forever to beat the boss.

    In other words, the game isn't going to reward you for trying to speedrun it. That's not padding, it's game balance. If you take shortcuts and skip most of the game, you'll have to work considerably harder at the bosses.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2022
  19. Azookara

    Azookara

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    Yeah, and I have a right to say I don't really want that in Sonic nor think it's good for Sonic. I think it's a pretty big misstep for people who just wanted to enjoy a cool fast platformer to just throw that out and call this the next logical step for the franchise.

    Can it still be a fine game? Eh, maybe. But I'm not necessarily enthused or caught up in the hype of Sonic doing a BoTW-like in the first place since I honestly didn't even like BoTW. Not like it'll stand up to that game, by any means, but whatever.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2022
  20. Shade Vortex

    Shade Vortex

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    For what it's worth, a combat focus is definitely one of the last things I ever wanted in a Sonic game. The Sonic series has consistently shown that it does not do a good job implementing it. It always devolves into the same grindy or repetitive, way-too-long, way-too-pace-breaking, way-too tanky enemy encounters which are also way too simple to justify how long they take to take down. And nothing has shown me that the end result will be any different for this game- enemies may become more tolerable to fight as you get stronger and the gameplay may become more varied as you unlock more skills, but unfortunately, the section of the game where you start out with nothing and also do nothing towards anything is not an insignificant amount of the game, considering that in an open world game, you are expected to be roaming about doing activities in any given area for a significant period of time.

    I couldn't tolerate this shit when it was just forced into my linear speedy levels in Heroes (along with sections where I have to stop and break blocks, stop and throw my partners at flying robots, etc), I definitely doubt that an open world would change my perspective. I'll likely try to get EXP and skills every which way except combat until I can deal enough damage to end most fights quickly, but even then, no matter how anyone plays this game, they'll still have to play those abysmal-looking Super Sonic Titan Battles- and even if those stat-ups and skill acquisitions make the combat in those any less boring or tedious, the camera looked awful during the combat in general in my opinion, not just in the Super Sonic fight, but ESPECIALLY in that fight.