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The Sonic 3 Music Ramble

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Morris, Jun 22, 2022.

  1. sonicthesnot

    sonicthesnot

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    Interesting! Probably a coincidence but you never really know... however the riff that's similar is not really particular to MJ's style IMO.
     
  2. saxman

    saxman

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    I have to agree. I think there are some pretty wild theories and supposed "connections" between things that aren't really related at all. I think some fans let their enthusiasm cloud better judgement and look for connections that simply aren't there.

    The melodies in the songs for the S3 credits and final boss use the same timing, which is basically: dotted-quarter, dotted-quarter, quarter. Both are done in a style that builds the song. But that's not that crazy of a coincidence. I can't think of one now, but trust me when I say there are *many* songs out there that do the same thing.

    I know this isn't pkderbar's theory or anything, but I think we have to be careful about saying we know these things are definitively true. The amount of misinformation about the classic games roaming around on the internet compared to 10 or 15 years ago is astounding, and especially on topics like Sonic 3's music.
     
  3. pkderbar

    pkderbar

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    Thanks Saxman. I was playing fast and loose with my language in the original post so I've edited to clarify what is factual or what is speculation.
     
  4. sonicthesnot

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    Did anyone ever notice that the chord progression in the Sonic CD (JP) title and Sonic 3 (standalone) is nearly identical? Even the bassline is pretty damn similar. Is there any evidence that the Sonic 3 title track could've been done by Masafumi Ogata? You can literally sing the melody of the S3 title theme over the Sonic CD one and it all fits perfectly.

    Edit - After digging around, it looks like this was already speculated in a really old 2012 thread: https://forums.sonicretro.org/index...he-s3-mid-boss-theme.24320/page-6#post-662235
     
  5. Crappy Blue

    Crappy Blue

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    I gotta tell you guys, you have to stop humoring ideas like "these songs have the same chord progression, could they share a composer?". Like, it's not out of the question for a games composer to have chord sequences they like to reuse or that they fall back on, but it's also incredibly common for two different composers to think of the same type of sound and harmonies for the same gameplay context. It's just not substantive enough to mean... anything without any supporting evidence.

    It's extremely tiring seeing some very passionate, very investigative people end up coming back over and over to these unrealistic ideas about music composition. "Sounds like" needs to mean more than a couple of melodic line with the same repeated rhythmic pattern and similar up-and-down movement or a 4-bar 4-chord progression with almost the same chords. It's taking musical building blocks and making them the identity of entire pieces and saying "hmm, these might be related..."
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2022
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  6. sonicthesnot

    sonicthesnot

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    Keep in mind that the whole Sonic 3 and MJ theory came about because someone thought Ice Cap Zone "sounded like" Smooth Criminal and the Sonic 3 credits theme "shared chords" with Stranger in Moscow. After Roger Hector said MJ's music was removed, tons of people were loudly claiming it all had to be a coincidence until Buxer confirmed it around 2009/2010.

    Had these inquisitive minds taken your advice, we may have never gotten the knowledge we have today. There's nothing wrong with some fun speculation, so if it's so "tiring" for you, just keep scrolling down.
     
  7. saxman

    saxman

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    I think it's fine to have theories and ideas, but I think a great deal of skepticism should be employed on every one of them, because without something more substantial than some mere coincidences (that occur all the time in music generally), you're really just throwing completely random things at the wall hoping one of them will stick.

    That's what my previous post was attempting to point out, and likewise Crappy Blue. He's 100% right, and I don't think I need to point out the *massive* number of theories that have been put out there on the internet over music connections.

    Huey Lewis & The News sued Ray Parker Jr. over copyright infringement. "Ghostbusters" has quite a bit in common with "I Want A New Drug". But it's not the compositional similarities alone that suggest one deliberately ripped off the other, but also the fact that Huey Lewis was originally asked to write the Ghostbusters theme song before turning it down. It's also been established that the aforementioned HLN song was used in the movie as a placeholder. All of this combined makes it obvious that one was borrowing from the other.

    Many of these theories fail to make any connections outside of "well this sounds similar to that". It's not enough. There aren't enough unique notes, scales, beats, chords, chord progressions, tempos, etc. to avoid a certain degree of coincidence.

    Edit: One more thing. There were a *lot* of people who believed in the MJ connection simply because all the composers credited for Sonic 3's music all had past associations with him. That's about five or six people. That would be a pretty incredible coincidence if it didn't have some degree of truth to it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2022
  8. LockOnTommy11

    LockOnTommy11

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    I think the similarities are always going to crop up, especially in a thread dedicated to discussing Sonic 3 music. I don’t think there’s any point in trying to fight that, even if it can sometimes be tiresome. There’s always the chance something new could be found worth talking about.
     
  9. Morris

    Morris

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    Ogata isn't credited in Sonic 3 and we have no reason to doubt the list of SEGA Sound Team membera in Sonic 3's credits.
     
  10. sonicthesnot

    sonicthesnot

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    I mean... MJ also isn't in the S3 credits but he definitely worked on the soundtrack
     
  11. Crappy Blue

    Crappy Blue

    Knuckles' Chaotix is a perfect game with no flaws Member
    You're equating a scenario where you put forward two Sonic the Hedgehog title themes with I > IV > ♭VII > IV > V and I > IV > ♭VII > V chord progressions respectively, both being a basic I > IV > V with a ♭VII slotted in somewhere but not the same somewhere, to suggest that the former's composer might have gone uncredited as composer for the latter; with the scenario where people, amidst years Michael Jackson's adjacency to SEGA and with access to liner notes from Jackson CDs crediting Brad Buxer and Doug Grisby as part of his music team, compared:
    • two songs with I > ♭VII > III > IV progressions, both with sections containing different key changes that happen to set them up for the exact same final modulations and chord progressions (moving to the song's relative II for Iᴹ⁷ > ii, then to the relative VII for the same two chords) that lead into a cadence with open harmony, and
    • two songs that focus heavily on simple bass lines on punchy instruments, one centered around a 1 > 7♭ > 6♭ > 7♭ melody and the other containing a 1 > 7♭ > 6♭ > 7♭ melody at points
    among a host of other comparisons.

    You are missing a huge amount of context if you believe the discussions around Michael Jackson and Sonic 3 kicked up because of fun speculation alone. Several factors made the premise intriguing enough to people to keep them researching, connecting, and talking about it, not the least of which being the compelling idea that Michael fucking Jackson may have gone uncredited in Sonic 3.

    SEGA would have had no reason not to credit Masafumi Ogata at all if he'd done work for the game. Cube Corp. was credited in the game's Special Thanks to accommodate Takaoka and Hikichi's work, and Ogata and Hataya would later be credited in Ristar's Special Thanks for their few contributions to that game's soundtrack. But even if they would use Ogata's work without any credit at all, this is an insanely short path to take to get to that conclusion. The only similarities between the two songs is that they share one of the most common cadences in all of music, broken up with a ♭VII for some extra emotion, and bass lines that follow the key pitches of each chord, something composers do brainlessly when they need to fill out the bass melody of a song (I would know; I've done it). It's a weak hypothesis to jump to from this small amount of potential connection.

    People invested enough in this topic to put forward speculation should recognize that "I think these two very short songs composed for the same part of their respective games sound similar" is a flimsy premise that needs much more support to be notable.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2022
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  12. pkderbar

    pkderbar

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    Honestly I thought this was a music ramble topic for those willing to speculate but responses like this make me question that.

    I recognize this response wasn't exactly directed at me, but you may want to consider that the forcefulness of your response could make others weary to engage further on this thread.

    I think it's okay to reply with facts and I'm willing to edit misinformation on my part in my previous posts, but well-meaning posters who are just looking to discuss stuff in a community dedicated to a thing they love shouldn't have to face scorn just for throwing out ideas in a thread dedicated to that.
     
  13. Morris

    Morris

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    No, MJ didn't "definitely" work on Sonic 3. As I mentioned in my original post, Brad Buxer mentioned that they may have done 1 cue (out of the 41) with Michael. There are (considerably) less than 41 MJ team tracks in Sonic 3, so it's rather unlikely that the one track Michael worked on made it in. There is, of course, a possibility that it did make it in, but it's far from definitive.
     
  14. evilhamwizard

    evilhamwizard

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    To clear up the Masafumi Ogata and Sonic 3 stuff, he did do some work on Sonic 3 according to Masayuki Nagao when I talked to him over a decade ago. In his own words:

    He told me this before the Sonic CD 20th anniversary edition soundtrack was released, which was the first time all of the tracks other than the two vocal themes were given credits. Tokuhiko Uwabo did not compose or directly contribute to Sonic 3, he was everyone who worked as part of the Sega Sound Team's boss. Ogata and Nagao were colleagues that worked for Sega at the same time (that's why "You Can Do Anything" appears an an invincibility theme in Sonic Drift). Nagao, also in his own words:

    I interpreted what he said at the time that he programmed half of the music in the game (the decision whether to use the songs was up to STI, they were just supplied music from different sources) and did rearrangements for Act 2. He didn't compose original music for Sonic 3, everything was either an arrangement or he programmed them from some other source.

    As a side note, I forgot to mention this. I asked him questions about Sonic Drift 2, and he told me that Saori Kobayashi was the one who did at least the arrangement of the Sonic 3 Act 2 Boss theme that was used in Drift 2. He never said she did the original, but keep in mind that at the time of Sonic 3's development, Saori wasn't working for Sega but for "Sound Ms" (or M'S based on the credits for Inspector Gadget, one of the first games she did in 1993). She was invited to work for Sega in 1994. Sound Ms doesn't have a credit in Deep Duck Trouble starring Donald Duck, a game that both Nagao and Kobayashi worked on, but interestingly Ms doesn't get a credit even though the game outsourced the music to Saori under her friend's company. It might be possible that she did actually contribute the original Act 2 boss theme when she was still working for Sound Ms, but just never got credit.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2022
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  15. That was the end credits, which became Stranger in Moscow. It is likely that MJ demoed other cues, such as Knux' theme and Carnival Night, but ultimately it was Buxer's duty to actually finish the tracks.
     
  16. Morris

    Morris

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    This makes no sense to me. The Sonic 1, Sonic CD, and Sonic 3 Title themes are all completely different compositions. Why would they reuse a Nakamura composition (for which they'd have to pay royalties)? This also directly contradicts Sawada's words, as he said he composed the Sonic 3 Title theme. Could Nagao have gotten stuff mixed up?

    No. The Sonic 3 Credits theme was made by Brad, on his own. He played the song to Michael during their stay in Moscow, and they turned it in to Stranger in Moscow together. The Credits theme was already written before Michael got involved with the song.
     
  17. Mastered Realm

    Mastered Realm

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    Stranger in Moscow was made *after* all 41 tracks had been recorded to tape. The one that had "maybe 1 or 2 cues that MJ worked on" in it.

    Buxer said he wanted to show Michael the cues, while they were in Moscow in September 93. Michael didn't want to listen to them so Buxer played the chords of the credits theme and they came up with lyrics on the spot and made that into a song. Didn't you watch the interview?
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2022
  18. Morris

    Morris

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    Or read the original post, for that matter.
     
  19. Indeed I have, and given how MJ operated and got Buxer the S3 gig, I wouldn't doubt that many or even all the cues he worked on began with MJ's beatboxing. Also worth noting that Buxer willingly went uncredited for his role in composing Stranger in Moscow.
     

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  20. Brainulator

    Brainulator

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    Especially given that they had quickly had to redo parts of Spinball's soundtrack to remove Nakamura's compositions...