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The Sonic 3, 20th Anniversary & Knuckles Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by The Taxman, Oct 18, 2014.

  1. Stealth

    Stealth

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    Sonic Mania, HCGE, Sonic Megamix, SonED2, [...]
    In the original Sonic 3, an exception was made in the global collision code for the entirety of AIZ1, and only that level, so using the same chunks again will most certainly exhibit the same behavior. It's only in the Retro Engine version that it's handled based on position, because it's kind of stupid to keep performing tests on every frame throughout the entire game for something that only happens once in a single area of a single level

    Also, it's necessary for the reason I described - "top" is relative to your orientation

    Look for "Player_WalkVertR" to find the code for walking along a wall to the right, and look three lines above "locret_EE00", where you see "tst.b $41(a0)". That's the timer, and the code at "loc_EE02" is what counts down the timer and holds the angle value at $C0. The code at "loc_EE0E" is what initially detects the structure when a height value of more than 15 is found in AIZ1, and it fixes the angle value to $C0 and starts the timer. Compare all of this to the code for "Player_WalkVertL"

    The reason you stay on the wall instead of following the top-solid is that all of this is meant to prevent the height value taken from the top-solid collision from being applied to your position, at least until you've reached an area where the value is 15 or less and the timer has expired
     
  2. D.A. Garden

    D.A. Garden

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    Ah, see this I didn't know and now I feel bad for making it look like I was doubting your knowledge. My apologies. I know enough about layouts and object usage/placement to create new ones but am still unsure of many behind the scenes actions so I'm glad you've explained this so that I understand. Thanks.

    I am curious, does Sandopolis have the same timer and exception in place? It uses 2 strange path swapper like objects that act in a different way to normal and has you running through top solid collision in a similar way at the end, so I am curious.

    Also, slightly off-topic but it's only recently that I've been able to edit Lava Reef Zone Act 1. The "Rock Layout Object" that's used to give the aesthetical look of rocks being in front of Sonic is achieved through objects that aren't placed in the normal convention and I've been able to finally edit them and their placement by loading them in SonED2, although they show up as Casino Night Zone bumpers. I'd be interested to know that if (or when) you get to creating Lava Reef Zone for this that they'll also be handled the same way or will you use another method for them?

    Again, thanks for the clarification and good luck with this. I do hope it goes somewhere.
     
  3. Dark Sonic

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    Ah so there were extra tidbits planned. Full versions of the 2 player levels (or at least ones that were the same that didn't use the scruncthed up sprites for 2 player) would be awesome.

    Random note, when you guys were toying with the level select (Nice touch with Flying Battery as level 5 XD) did you consider using the Data select background instead of the Sonic and Miles one from Sonic 2?
     
  4. LordOfSquad

    LordOfSquad

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    Wow, the game looks fantastic in widescreen. I really hope Sega gets their ducks in a row and puts the green light on for this eventually. You guys are the best.
     
  5. Vanya

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    That was a really interesting read.
    Gives me ideas and insights for my own project.
    Also, expanded versions of the competition stages is an idea that has been floating around in the back of my mind for a while now.
    I'd love to see what could come of it and how the half sized stage graphics are handled artisticly.
     
  6. kazblox

    kazblox

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    Please, SEGA, do this for us! Even if you have problems with Michael Jackson... [​IMG] This independent project spun me out of the shitter and left me in a pile of cheers and WANTS, dripping saliva all day...
     
  7. KingOfBunnies

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    Definitely a good proof of concept. I'm guessing you probably showed this to SEGA just so they know it can be done. Whatever it may be, this was amazing to watch. I love the widescreen and the whole port is very faithful. Hopefully something can happen where this sees the light of day.
     
  8. Sappharad

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    Just an random note on the Gumball machine topic; It could be a regional thing, but I've never found it unusual to refer to a toy capsule machine as a gumball machine, even if it has toy capsules in it. In most supermarkets, they usually used the exact same machines for both balls of gum and toy capsules, so they could empty the gumballs out and replace them with toy capsules or vice versa. To me it always referred to the style of machine where you turn the knob and a round object falls out, as opposed to specifically being for gum. (E.g "I want the toy in that gumball machine")

    Awesome job guys, and I hope this helps your chances of getting the next one approved.
     
  9. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    Awesome video and a really interesting read! I don't know what SEGA is waiting for, quite honestly.


    Regarding the new spheres:
    -I feel that, perhaps, having a fixed teleportation order (rather then random) could make things a bit more fair when trying to create a strategy to master the stages.
    -In order to speed things up for the player, perhaps the green spheres could also have the ability to transform in groups when surrounded by red spheres, like this:
    [​IMG]
     
  10. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    *gets in line*
     
  11. Sappharad

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    I agree with everything ICEknight said here. Especially the green sphere comment. I never even knew you could box around spheres to turn them all to rings until a couple years ago. This would reward and encourage players to use that strategy.
     
  12. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    I'm intrigued by the idea of the special stages becoming a more intricate puzzle where more stipulations and objects appear the more you progress. Something like that might have given the Blue Sphere mode more longevity.
     
  13. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

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    I'm going to go out on a limb and say green spheres is an extra layer of complexity that Sonic 3&K probably doesn't need to have. The "red is bad, blue is good" thing is fairly simple* - sticking in green and pink and whatever seems a bit excessive to me (particularly when you consider half that generation couldn't get the "go around the outside" thing).

    I do think there is a case for generating more interesting designs for the S&K + Sonic 1 mode though. Like bigger maps where the patterns are generated in smarter ways, that sort of thing.

    I'm also concious these design choices don't always work out well for the colourblind. Also fun fact: IIRC S&K's special stages still work out with monochrome televisions which still weren't uncommon in 1994!


    *except when you immediately assume Knuckles needs to get red spheres, not blue. I can't be the only one who first thought that.
     
  14. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    Love the Blue Sphere additions, although it looks like the pink sphere could be kind of a flow breaker at high speed - but it's probably better than shooting out of the other side way too fast to figure anything out. I also tend to agree with ICEknight's idea about a fixed destination. Out of curiosity, do you think your improved ring box pathing algorithm or something like it would be possible given the original CPU and memory constraints? I'm almost afraid to ask since I'll feel like I have to do it, but the S&K version's issues are kind of irritating. Do you happen to know any of the particular issues around the Sonic 3 implementation that might have led to the change between versions?

    Nice to see the odd Completism in there of course, even if they're mostly logical improvements rather than anything I can take credit for! The Knuckles intro is really interesting - I had the idea of doing something like that early on, but I couldn't really make it work, at least not with the skills and tools I was working with then (and I don't have much ambition to revisit it.) My first idea was actually to have it take place on the beach, until I realised that it'd be nonsense storyline-wise without some serious graphical changes. It'd be really interesting to see what you'd do with the alternate zone transitions - I know my Mushroom Valley to Sandopolis isn't super popular, but hey, I think it worked out OK.

    The technical discussion was really interesting - with all our fancypants modern technology, even in more limited mobile devices, it's weird to think that zone sizes and transitions are still a challenge. This is where the attention to detail put into these remakes really shines - they never feel different or compromised because you always find a way to make things feel right. I suspect plenty of your greatest achievements in these games are things we'll never notice because they just work, where they'd feel subtly wrong in a less well constructed version (or less subtly in the case of Sonic Genesis).

    Like everyone else, I really hope you guys get to make this happen - the proof of concept looks great and I'm sure the final product would be amazing as usual. And happy birthday to my second favourite half of my favourite game, of course.
     
  15. E-122-Psi

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    I agree for the standard special stages, which are hard as is and don't run in a linear fashion for people to get used to the difficulty curve as much (if you lose the first stage, you still go to the second one next regardless). Blue Sphere is a more challenging marathon for those who are accustomed to the challenge in the first place, especially in a 10000 plus zones, so adding more stipulations and complexities would work as well. I prefer it over more repetitive 'cheap' difficulty anyway, like the damn thing PAUSING EVERYTIME YOU HIT A SPHERE.

    *I think I remember thinking that before, though went on a whim and hit a blue sphere first to be safe.
     
  16. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    Yeah, I like the additions, but wouldn't like to see randomness involved.

    The new spheres remind me of Q*Bert more than anything else - maybe the next logical step is to include enemies? :v:
     
  17. E-122-Psi

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    Is it okay I've put this on the SEGA board? (I know someone's already revealed it on SSMB).
     
  18. MykonosFan

    MykonosFan

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    I'm crossing my fingers that someday SEGA will be able to let this happen because that was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen

    EDIT: echoing Gene, I bought CD pretty much everywhere I could and I bought Sonic 1/2 iOS. I will buy those wherever they wind up next and I would buy this wherever it wound up
     
  19. Machenstein

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    I always felt the color of the spheres was suppose to be based on the three main characters. I guess that won't be the case unless you plan to include Amy and Vector as playable characters. :V
     
  20. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    Sure, if you're being selective and ignoring the silver bumpers.