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The Jet Black Hedgehog: Shadow the Hedgehog (Manga)

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by charcoal, Sep 12, 2024.

  1. synchronizer

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    But in SA2, it's suggested that his memories were tampered with, so it wouldn't really be a retcon if they did that. I think it'd actually make sense.
     
  2. Kyro

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    The updated link to Windii's translation returns an error

    Edit: NVM, works now, must have just been a random bit of downtime
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2024
  3. The Deleter

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    Tbh while I do think it's important that Humanity is the one that fails Shadow and Maria out of their own paranoia/greed (they did capture Gerald to continue working on Shadow for them, after all), I don't think I'd hate Doom being behind the invasion? TTo50A suggests that there was a leak from the colony to alert GUN about Project Shadow, and while I don't think they'd be that willing to believe a floating starfish alien that the real threat was Shadow all along... if he actually managed to manipulate them properly from behind the scenes, no mind control whatsoever, it'd be pretty cool to see him going full Aizen to ensure Shadow became the tool he wants him to be. And it'd also give some interesting interplay between Gerald's backup plans against Black Doom, with Black Doom just playing an uno reverse card and kickstarting the very event that destroyed him in the process.
     
  4. Kilo

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    So I gave this a read with Windii's translation out, and it's a little rough. In terms of writing, I don't know if it's just translation, but Shadow seems burdened by Maria's friendliness until the raid... Which is not how their relationship should be depicted. In fact, he just seems burdened by everyone in general, frustrated that he has to sort out attacks on the ARK. It just doesn't fit Shadow's character pre-raid. If he feels guilty that he's a failed cure, then he should be more than happy to do what he can for the humans.
    On the translation side of things, I think some things could be changed, like Shadow being disappointed he isn't a "Wonder drug" I think is probably meant to be something more along the lines of "Miracle cure". Or during the raid, the word disposed is probably used a bit too much and would be too formal for the GUN agents. Probably should have slipped the word kill in there.

    Art wise, it's pretty rough at times. Maria's chin is often far too small for her mouth to fit on her face properly:
    upload_2024-9-13_16-11-5.png upload_2024-9-13_16-11-26.png upload_2024-9-13_16-11-57.png
    And Shadow's proportions are far more all over the place, his nose is either tiny or huge, his spines are an absolute mess from behind
    upload_2024-9-13_16-14-25.png upload_2024-9-13_16-15-19.png
    And his head feels consistently sunken into his body like his shoulders are always raised, or like he's leaning forward? His head just doesn't feel properly positioned on his body.

    Maybe I'm being too rough on it since this was only announced last month and probably only had that amount of time to be developed, but man I wish Shadow got better here.
     
  5. This is the first time we've really seen Shadow depicted before the raid happened, so he didn't really have an established characterization then.

    Years of fan interpretations just made people assume that he was a nice guy until the raid happened, when in fact he's always just been a moody guy.

    I don't mind it; it still captures the essence of Shadow's character, that he's burdened by his lack of purpose. Hell that scientist gassing him up, only to sell him out to save his own life does a lot to justify his motives in SA2
     
  6. synchronizer

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    Shadow was more melancholic than tragically confused in SA2, so I can see this characterization being a bit too far away from the source. It DOES however make it easier to see why he was so traumatized. He finally understood the value of being friends with Maria in this version at the very last second before that was taken away from him.

    By the way, we can always read this as an alternative take on the guilt he felt in post, caused by Black Doom playing mind games on him. This doesn’t have to be his actual experience.
     
  7. The Deleter

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    I'd say dwelling on his purpose and a half-lidded haze in SA2 pre-incident, and not being able to find it on the ARK for some reason, (SA2 never told us he failed one of his purposes directly) makes it extremely in line with the depiction in SA2 - in my eyes at least, and it feels super satisfying for it to be expanded on. The only thing that I would argue is that Maria asks Shadow if he likes the planet in the JP script, rather than it being the other way around; but considering Maria never got to see what Earth was like either, and that aspect of her wanting to see the Earth had been referenced before, I don't find it hard to buy that the flashback occurred some time inbetween the first time she took him up there and the GUN invasion.

    What's funny is that Dark Beginnings seems to be using the same angle of him failing to cure her, and angst-ing over it, so we'll see how consistent the two are across the board. Definitely seems like they're finally establishing the bedrock of what they wanted out of the story between these two at the very least, and it's good to see them do it while so many of SA2's original development team are still working at Sonic Team. Need to see more of this kind of stuff in possible remakes while the opportunity is still there.
     
  8. Linkabel

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    It's weird because, to me, SA2 (and the X adaptation) Shadow felt more like a ruthless, serious version of Sonic.

    Yes, he got angry and melancholy, and had a moment where he lost his cool a bit during the first Maria flashback, but he always seemed in control of those emotions and knew how to focus them toward a goal.

    I think what I mean is how he expresses himself in SA2/X during the scene where he mentions to Maria that maybe he can find his purpose on Earth versus the conversation in Dark Beginnings where he slams the floor or where his fist is shaking in the manga.

    All versions of Shadow are pondering their purpose and are frustrated, but the SA2/X version is more chill, while the others align more with his portrayal after SA2, where he's more prone to lashing out and can be "hot-tempered," as his profile describes him.

    Or even how he interacts with Sonic. In SA2, when he runs into Sonic, he's still annoyed and angry with him, but there's a cocky playfulness to their fights, even when Shadow threatens Sonic with murder.

    But now, when they clash, Shadow is just straight-up fed up with him, like a hedgehog Anger from Inside Out.

    I wish they would return to that version of Shadow because, honestly, I think he was at his peak coolness in that game.

    I think they came close in '06, but after that, it feels like he's gone back to how he was portrayed in his own game, where his characterization became a bit chaotic due to everyone wanting him on their side, plus his confusion about not knowing who he really was.

    This is also up in the air, but it seems like there might be some Black Doom-induced flashback in this and Dark Beginnings.

    If that's the case, I was hoping the manga would tell a version of what happened on the ARK without the interference of Black Doom or Gerald altering memories, etc. But we'll see once we get the whole animation/manga.
     
  9. The Deleter

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    SA2 had him being unfocused in his emotions a ton though; for example, he initially laughs at rouge's misfortune on Prison Island, but then is suddenly struck by his memory of Maria and is legitimately conflicted between empathy and apathy for a good couple of seconds, eventually running off in frustration to save her even though his plan to destroy the world runs counter to saving anyone. (probably one of the most underrated scenes in the game, showing how Maria is both the cornerstone for that trauma, but also empathy he can realize of his own volition)

    When Sonic sees him in Green Forest, he gets distracted and goaded into a fight by the faker implication, (and fake comes up over and over in his SA2 dialog as a source of resentment from him) only for Eggman to remind him of what his mission was at the last second. The scene on the bridge, of course, has him lose his composure for a second over his trauma, and when he confronts Rouge about her double-crossing them, he at first becomes audibly disgusted at someone working in deceit like she does, but then gets actually shaken about whether he's the real deal or not with her research. He's not completely controlled by emotion, but he's definitely yanked around by it a fair bit throughout the story.

    Sonic X doesn't have this, in spite of most of the scenes being an imitation. Shadow always seems to be on top of his emotions with either a basic frown or a smug grin on his face, most of the time, and only loses his cool when Chris talks about "fair" in their final argument. He's not conflicted in going to save Rouge, he merely forgets his plan for a split second before remembering he needs the emeralds to accomplish the plan of revenge, which happens after a Maria 'flashback'. Chris ends up being the stand in for Rouge's plot beat, but as a "looks like Maria" equivalent, which has much less moving parts. He doesn't even get goaded into fighting against Sonic in Green Forest, since Sonic is the one that gets in his way to fight him demanding answers while he smugly laughs about him not knowing his plan. All the other examples are reduced to being stoic or cocky about his plan all throughout X, even down to the last fight, and misses a lot of the nuances and body language of SA2, in spite of bothering to lift from the uncut script for some parts of the JP script.

    (And just so we're clear on why I'm dogging on the adaption like this :V Maekawa claimed that he "wasn't that involved" in this season, in spite of many holding it up as "The True Vision of SA2". He would go on to become much more involved in Season 3, however.)

    The difference between the Dark Beginnings scene and the SA2 scene is there, but they're also two different moments in time, one where he's frustrated in failing a purpose, another where he's depressed looking for a purpose. SA2 Shadow, in the full context of himself, is volatile like this, actually getting upset at the idea of being illegitimate in both cases, not really knowing for sure what he believes at points, and in general matches a more hot-tempered description at points, especially when you look away from the eng dub's "I'm the coolest!" ad-lib for an injury line. In general though, SA2 Shadow had a whole range of emotions that he was pulled around by, and an overwhelming sense of nihilism drives his soundtrack's lyrical and musical subtext hard. SA2 Shadow was confused, and the only thing driving him to his goal was what he thought Maria's wish might have been, and the core thought belying it all.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2024
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  10. Johndough

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    Normally I would agree that having Black Doom be the one manipulating the soldier to kill Maria is a cop-out. However, this was handled pretty well and I don't think it devalues the moral and ethical questions that the GUN raid brought to the table in the first place.

    For one, they mercilessly off'd that sleazebag scientist that turned on Shadow, so there's no cop-out in terms of how ruthless they are.

    Second and more importantly, they still threatened and implied to have assaulted Maria to get info about Shadow, and when it seemed like a lost cause, one of the soldiers just shot at her without hesitation (and it made for a very cool moment where Shadow catches the bullet).

    As such, it didn't really feel like "This was all Black Doom's doing!". No these soldiers were ready to kill all their targets with or without him. All Black Doom did was raise the stakes for SxSG lol. I saw some comments being unsure if Black Doom was manipulating the soldier or it was just symbolism. Personally, I think it's the former, but the fact that there's even any doubt about that is a testament to how ruthless the GUN soldiers were presented.

    As a side, I do think this also answers some confusion regarding why Shadow wasn't able to save Maria from a GUN raid, because we all know he can take care of an army of soldiers without breaking a sweat.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2024
  11. synchronizer

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    By the way, did SA2 Shadow know from the very beginning that collecting all the Emeralds would lead to doomsday? I guess he does kind of disappear at the beginning of last story.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2024
  12. The Deleter

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    A lot of people point out that Gerald uploading the doomsday program to the ARK is a plothole when critiquing SA2's story, but the common counter-argument is that Shadow probably ended up taking whatever program or plan Gerald cooked up to the ARK after he escaped. He knew most of the specifics of how it needed to be achieved, (outside of the Biolizard) so he probably knew ahead of time yeah. As the ARK is hurtling towards earth he just stands there accepting it apathetically.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. synchronizer

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    I feel like SA2’s story could be polished and retooled into a Hideo Kojima game script or something with all of this characterization. The Big Boss/Solid Snake thing already has the real/faker dichotomy.
     
  14. Forte

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    I kinda like the Black Doom retcon, influencing GUN member to kill Maria. Makes it more personal for Shadow to really hate it.
     
  15. The Deleter

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    Guys, I have... news...

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    As it turns out, with Lost Impact representing the Biohazard in TTo50YA that kickstarted GUN's invasion, and provided them with the cover story for the rest of the ARK that evacuated... the artificial chaos were infected by the Black Arms all along???

    I don't know why Black Doom would provide a cover story for GUN like that, but this is insane to find out after investing so much into the idea that the leaker/saboteur was a scientist instead
     
  16. Linkabel

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    See, I feel like Shadow already has enough reasons to hate Black Doom on a personal level.

    I kind of feel if they do end up shoehorning Black Doom into being the main cause of Maria's death it would just take a bit from humanity's "sin" during that event.

    There's not a lot of things Sonic X did right, but the soldier's story in that was great on how guilty he felt and how wrong it is to just follow orders.

    And even though in the game continuity we don't have that I still think GUN did what they did due to human cruelty on their own resonates more than Black Doom pulling their strings.

    Not the end of the world, but it's just a "Joker shot Batman's parents" angle I don't like.
     
  17. The Deleter

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    I think the ultimate rationalization for that would be that Black Doom himself doesn't have any powers to mind control anyone, not unless they share his blood like Shadow.

    If he verbally suggested that the soldier kill Maria instead of shooting at Shadow, that would take some away from the moment a bit imo. But that's kind of up in the air right now, so all we would know is that he played a role in informing GUN about Project Shadow at all. The reaction GUN and this soldier had is still their own, and him betting on the "foolishness of humanity" to take care of Gerald's assets is important enough to be a cornerstone of Black Doom's mindset in the game. He might just be spectating.

    The responsibility humanity has in how both Gerald and Shadow turned out doesn't stop at the ARK either. They captured Gerald and forced him to work on Project Shadow for their own gain, after an entire massacre that could otherwise be written off as just paranoia. Giving Black Doom any airtime during the biggest moment of these themes being displayed ultimately harms the simplicity of the messaging, but it's still pretty prevalent throughout all the moments leading up to SA2 itself.


    In contrast, one thing I don't think many people bring up is how Black Doom knows of Shadow's past and trauma at all in ShTH. It's a plot hole in a game that no one really respects narratively, but this would explain this aspect at the very least.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2024
  18. synchronizer

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    Is it possible that the manga is depicting Shadow's corrupted memories still? Maybe it was Black Doom himself who killed Maria and Shadow's memory was modified to fill-in a GUN soldier instead.
    Either that, or does Black Doom have the ability to disguise himself as other people and creatures?
    I don't know if they'd go that far. Hmm.
     
  19. Forte

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    I view it more like Black Doom’s plan to corrupt Shadow, so he hates humanity.

    if so, it actually kinda worked.
     
  20. Deep Dive Devin

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    I know I've said this like four times now, but what bothers me about most depictions of Maria's death post-SA2 is that to me, everything about the ARK disaster comes across not just as a tragedy of human fallibility, but also a political commentary. I mean, I know it's a Japanese game, but 50 years before this fictionalized America was doing unethical bioengineering experiments looking for a superweapon, real America was doing all sorts of similar fucked-up nonsense, because it was the Cold War and paranoia and xenophobia about other world powers was way past the breaking point. Maria Robotnik comes across, to me, as someone that was killed by a system as much as any weapon. Every horrible thing that happened with the Robotnik family (well, okay, we don't know what made Eggy the man he is) is the cascading effect of some cowardly men in suits making a callous order to shut down a project they feared in the stupidest, messiest way possible. We don't know who they were and probably never will, and that makes sense, because those men were interchangeable cogs in a machine, who did not know or care about whom their orders were effecting.

    I respect the execution and what Sonic X tried with Phillips himself being effected by the trauma of the situation (though it feels a little "US soldier wants sympathy for the war crimes he did" at times), but whenever they try to attach a name and a face to Maria's death, be it Black Doom or some dude, it feels like a regression, like they're creating a target that Shadow could get real revenge on, which runs counter to what his arc in SA2 is about. Even though that doesn't happen, even though it's only theoretical, the possibility makes everything about the situation feel small and flaccid to me. That's why it's important to me whenever I talk about SA2 not showing the gunner or shooting itself. The idea that it may not have even been on purpose accentuates all of this. It needs to be something Shadow can't even conceivably escape from in any way but letting go on his own terms.

    Also, Doom has a psychic link with all Black Arms, so it makes sense that he would know what Shadow has been through. I think it might be a straight-up hive mind? If so, that leads me to a story idea that I would utterly relish in, which is Shadow trying to liberate the Black Arms from Black Doom's control.
     
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