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The future

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by LOst, Mar 3, 2005.

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  1. LocalH

    LocalH

    roxoring your soxors Tech Member
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    Some of the newer games might be alright on their own merit (I've got Sonic Heroes PC, and I did find it a bit fun when playing through it somewhat).

    But when taken in the context of Sonic the Hedgehog (and, by extension, the quality MD games), they end up looking not so good.
     
  2. Vangar

    Vangar

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    Im sure you can finish Sonic Heroes without jumping =P
     
  3. voice

    voice

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    Im gonna go ahead and say im in. I find the new games rather.........disapointing. I know I haven't played any of the games, but from the demos I've seen, the videos, and one weird reply on SEGA's own sonic site reguarding a change in SA2:B(quote is below), I still think they are just not thinking what they used to think, they aren't moving with the times.

    However.... having said that, it is important to note that Sonic was origionally intended to be a kid's game, the issue today is that the kids of then have turned into us and we wish to see old style, or if your like me, some god damn violence in the game! SEGA will not grant this because A. they created Sonic as a kid's image and will try to keep it that way and B. with new technology coming out in gaming developement, they kinda have to move forward even if some of them do not like it.

    The quote:

    Basicly for those of you who never visited Sonic Central, its Sega's very own sonic fansite. There is a section under "Community"(ain't it great we're left out?) in the Q&A section. The Q&A section is where people ask Sonic a question and he replys(I wish I could get payed to fake a characters reply).

     
  4. LOst

    LOst

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    Actually, I hope Sega won't notice us. I want to run a quiet race until this is over. Then Sega can notice us as much as they want since they have then already lost.
     
  5. LocalH

    LocalH

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    There is only one thing I can think of at the current moment that would be a good way for Sega to return to their roots, while still making the best use of the power available with current consoles.

    Think SMC, only in 2.5D (SSBM-style 2D gameplay, 3D graphics). I truly feel that is the only thing that could rekindle the classic Sonic fire in this new age, where storyline and having umpteen million supporting characters is more important than gameplay and quality design.
     
  6. But, how someone can be optimistic about something completely unknown, even if it's about Sonic, anyway?

    Oh whatever, I'm IN once I believe it's pretty clear here:

     
  7. LOst

    LOst

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    That's already on its way. That's what Sonic DS will be all about. A combination of Sonic Heroes and Sonic Advance 3.

    It works for Mario, but not for Sonic because the art is more complexed in Sonic. Mario's world is 16x16 tiles. Sonic's world was like that, but the new Sonic is all about different size polygons. The graphics will suck in 2-D!
     
  8. LocalH

    LocalH

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    No, I mean the MD games redone in 2.5D. Not some new games, but the originals. Down to debug and all.

    It's even theoretically possible that it could be done using the original ROMs, in an emulator specifically tailored for the task. There has been at least one emulator for arcade Pacman that rendered higher-resolution graphics using the original ROM (unfortunately, the graphics seemed sub-par to me). Also, I remember seeing a similar emulator that rendered a first-person view along with a small overhead map view, and it looked fairly good, although I haven't tried it myself. It wouldn't be that hard in theory, since the camera would be fixed. There would have to be a different copy of the base emulator for each game, with code that would sniff the required engine data (not low-level VDP peeks, but viewport/Sonic position and velocity, location of objects, that sort of higher-level information). It would be entirely feasible to translate that into 3D graphics, given a fixed camera, I would imagine.

    Ideally, it would not use any original tiles as-is, but rather the emulator would supply it's own graphics in terms of polygonal models. If done right, it would be brilliant, and I believe such a game would look best on the Gamecube (for the system's potential visual beauty, reference RE4).
     
  9. Aurochs

    Aurochs

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    If we're making a 2.5D Sonic game, I'm in. I'll do whatever I can - I have some experience with C++, and I plan to learn Python and x86 ASM at some point.
     
  10. Xian

    Xian

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    I don't know how much help I could possibly be, seeing as I am still young and I have little experience hacking, but if I get approved, I'll be as much help possible.
    This is my last Trial Member post, so I'll catch y'all later!
     
  11. LOst

    LOst

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    I'm more into programming operating systems than games. Which means if there will be a Sonic game, it will be pretty heavy with plug-ins and stuff.

    But I'm not at that point yet. Mettrix and Sonic Retro are already going in that direction.
     
  12. Aurochs

    Aurochs

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    Which is exactly how I think it should work.

    I'm kind of wondering what your plan is, exactly... So are a lot of other people here.
     
  13. LOst

    LOst

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    When I go public with my things, it will be so much harder to find people. Then everyone will say "I want in!".

    So that's why I can't say anything.
     
  14. Elusive

    Elusive

    Sparkster the Rocket Knight Member
    Tread carefully LOst. We're working in grey areas of the law by modifying ROMs anyway (yes yes, IPS patches, I know, but it's besides the point); the only reason we can and are allowed to continue is because Sega don't give a hoot about ROM editors. If they wanted to, they could have crushed us years ago when the S2 proto was publicly released. If you want to play with fire and take Sega on head-to-head, prepare for a Sega backlash.

    Bottom line, if you are planning what I think you're planning, think carefully about the negative effects as well as positive effects - you're taking on a massive company head to head, one that's been apathetic to ROM traders and fans in general for years, decades. From what you're saying (my interpretations of cryptic clues, Scooby Snack plz =P), you are envisioning new a new Sonic era, through use of edited ROMs, newly-programmed games, and so on. Think Sega'll allow copyright infringement? Sonic is a corporate icon, after all.

    Just my tuppence; of course I could be completely wrong about your plans. In any case, please understand I trust your judgement, but think and tread carefully. Good luck
     
  15. I've got to say, I'm kinda tired of the current situation, where liking SA3 even a small amount seems to be some kind of unforgivable sin. Personally, it's one of my favorite Sonic games to date, behind Sonic 2 and S3&K. What is it that so many people seem to hate about it?

    On topic, you'd probably get more support for whatever you're doing, LOst, if you actually gave people a clue as to what it is. I still don't know what you're planning, so I don't even know if I can really be of use or not. I mean, I'd LIKE to find something to help with, since this sounds like an interesting project, but since I don't know what it is, I don't know if I will be able to help. Are you planning a new website? Then I can help, and I'd love to. Are you planning a new game? Then I probably won't be much more than extra baggage. This secrecy stuff is a little nuts.

    EDIT: In fact, you only seem to be looking for people who think SEGA is an evil corporate entity trying to ruin our lives and that every Sonic game past the original three is deserving of the deepest and most personal loathing and hatred. Since I don't agree with either view, I guess I won't be helpful after all.
     
  16. Ted

    Ted

    The Original Forum Gay Member
    I'll do what I've been doing in the Sonic Community for my almost first year here: Find random stuff from anywhere in my Area involving Sonic and if anything stands out of the ordinary I'll post it up here.
     
  17. LOst

    LOst

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    Sega says on their site that emulation and ROMs are illegal in all ways. They have said that for a long time. You are breaking their law already. The reason they haven't got to you is because they made an empty threat.
    They can only shut down the sites that has a ROM download section if the ISP are willing to cooperate with Sega.

    Also I'm not afraid of Sega because I don't live in Japan or America. These companies are built up from rules of that country. They are also using the copyright wrong in Sonic 1 among other games. They are also using the TM sign on the Sonic 1, 2, 3, K title screen wrong.

    Remember how Segasonic.net got shutdown by Sega? Well, that's because of the name Sega was used. They can't do anything about the name Sonic since it is not their name.

    -If you want to play with Sega the right way. You shouldn't be here.
    -If you want Sega to notice you, then you have failed. They just said they don't care about us.
    -If you want Sega to make better Sonic games in the future, you have to do it with a fight. It seems like a few of you buy Sonic games just to support Sonic Team. So it doesn't matter what the quality is represented in the game you buy.
     
  18. Vangar

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    It would seem Sonic games have been designed just to be played by children under 8. that's probably why they don't care for the older age group anymore.
     
  19. Gamerguy

    Gamerguy

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    Considering the average gamer is 27, they're aiming at the wrong audience. =P

    Excuse me for not reading through the whole topic, but I'll try to jump in on this effort. I've owned every Sonic game since Sonic 1 on the Genesis. Since 1991, I've re-purchase all the Genesis games in one way or another 3 times. Then when Heroes was announced as multiplatform I proposed a boycott - it magnified the fact that Sega is simply squeezing every last penny out of the franchise. It sickens me that when the new generation of gamers hears "Sonic" tey instantly think "Shadow." I agree that Sonic Advance 3 was the best effort we've seen in years, but at its core, it was just a remake of the two previous Sonic Advance games - "OMG Eggman OMG Super Sonic OMG Final Fight in Space." Sega's arguement to "Why aren't the games good anymore?" is probably something along the lines of "the audience is older and just doesn't like Sonic anymore." We're living proof that they're wrong in their choice of audience, so I completely agree with LOst that making stuff ourselves is the only way we're going to get a good Sonic game anytime soon.

    As most of you probably know by now, I run Sonic World (http://www.sonicworld.net) </blantant advertisement> where I'm attempting to put the focus of the community in general back on the games (as opposed to Sonic X). I'm re-opening our fan game area ("Sonic World Studios") for the site's three year anniversary next month. We'll be launching with a game made in Multimedia Fusion, but the engine really isn't all that bad. It's going to be more of a Sonic Spinball-style game with a lot of platforming and different gameplay methods thrown into the mix, such as pong, breakout, pinball, etc...so basically what I'm trying to say is that this isn't the only group trying to change Sonic. Sega has a copyright code that they ask you to put in all fan-created content (from Sega's Fan Development Kit from the first version of Sonic Central):
    So as long as we use our own engine and give full credit for all graphics and properties, they shouldn't touch us. All we're really doing is creating a better version of their old games to make everyone excited about Sonic again, right? So isn't that actually advertising for them? I posted one of my old fan game projects on Sega's forum and was thanked by one of the moderators for my efforts. We obviously aren't allowed to make a profit or distribute it on portable media formats, though.

    All of that said...if we're trying to stay safe from a legal aspect it's probably a lot smarter to make Sega notice a traditional Sonic fansite than a huge community bent on hacking their completed projects and illegally obtained prototypes. My site is established in the community as a whole and hasn't ever endorsed emulation of Sonic games. The only ROM-related material we offer on the site are hacking guides and utilites. They're not going to want to listen to us here because we've embarrased them in front of other developers by publically revealing not one, but two prototype Sonic games. S2B's community has already violated the law more than once - ok, a lot more than once - and it's foolish to think they're not aware of it. They already threatened Rika in the search, so we don't want to upset them any more than we already have.

    Anyone who knows me or my site can tell you that by saying this I'm not asking for more hits. My site is already a success in my opinion because it's created a community of people who have fun and enjoy themselves. Even if you don't take my advice, I'll gladly assist with graphics and programming.
     
  20. Icy Guy

    Icy Guy

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    We're "weak"? I wouldn't say we're weak, if all we're (or, at least, I'm) doing is just being skeptical about the future of this project, and pointing out that it just looks like you're trying to go out of your way to screw Sega over. (I have no idea how making a game of our own would "go against" them.) If you want to talk about being "weak," then let me quote you:

    "Carefully edited to make a point. That's called media."

    You, and several other people, know exactly what I'm talking about. :P

    (I think you've got the whole "help Sega" thing wrong, btw, unless, of course, buying their games qualifies as "helping them." That's as far as my helping goes.)

    While I'm busy quoting stuff, I think I'll quote this:

    What parallels can I draw from reading this? Hmm...

    Yes, I'll admit it: the new games do have their flaws, such as annoying characters and other unnecessary elements, but a lot of people are exaggerating those flaws, mainly to "prove" that Sonic is on his way to the bottom of the video game hierarchy. (Of course, some games, such as Advance 2, apparently spark interest in some of those people.) The problem is (as LocalH pointed out) that we're putting them up against the old games, instead of looking at them as new games to judge on their own. If the release time between the first game in a franchise and the latest game in a franchise is great enough, there will be substantial differences. Differences that people may not like. Sonic is a very good example of this.

    I'd also like to point out that Lemming 1545's post is one of the most well reasonable, objective posts in this topic.

    However, as I said before, I might help down the road, if I see this going somewhere, since it's obvious that the number of musically-talented people in this community is quite small.

    EDIT: Added a word or two, changed two other words.

    EDIT 2: Not to say I don't like the old Sonic games better than the new ones...I do. It's just that I thought I'd point out how nostalgia-fueled the community is.
     
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