The daytime stages are definitely a step in the right direction...

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by OSM, May 3, 2009.

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  1. OSM

    OSM

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    I think most of us at this point can agree that the daytime stages had a good amount of charm and fun compared to recent games, and many of us have claimed that it's definitely a step up for the franchise. Despite how wonderful it would be to go down the same route in future games, I still think something is missing that's been a missing element for a long time now.

    The momentum and pinball mechanics. I've whined and supported this notion for awhile, but I really believe that without them the daytime stage game play won't be as fantastic as it should be. They would be able to have players control Sonic at a reasonable pace again since all of Sonic's actions aside from the homing attack would be entirely decided upon the momentum and how fast Sonic would be traveling at the time. Not to mention the spin dash has been absent or rendered useless for awhile, I would love to be able to smash through badniks and walls again, plus it's just fun to rev up and let Sonic go at a high speed. Many can say that this is also not a necessity because of the recent attention the Sonic boost has been getting since Rush, but I still prefer the spin dash over it because it gives most players control over how fast Sonic will go and it's a stapled trademark of his character, in my opinion.

    The daytime stages are brilliantly put together, and the alternate routes and emphasis on getting to the end quicker is a welcome form of game play, but there's also a bit too much running which can also get a tad boring sometimes. I want to run off with Sonic then have him roll down a hill and shoot off in the air at dizzying heights again, or just plant Sonic in a U pit and roll him around to build up momentum to reach higher areas making him faster as he comes down and back up. Again, this would also help the problem of controlling Sonic's speed since his actions would all be decided upon the momentum gained by the player. It would also avoid Sonic slipping off edges from overly anxious players as well.

    Sounds like a good idea for Sonic Team to consider, yes? No?
     
  2. muteKi

    muteKi

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    The daytime stages are the same thing as pretty much all of Sonic Heroes. This is my boilerplate response to people who actually like them.
    I mean, half the time you're not even doing the HOLD UP TO WIN but doing PRESS X TO WIN.

    Honestly, the only good thing about them is that you can use boosting on hills and then jumping to get to special places that you couldn't reach otherwise. Of course, you could do that in SA1 as well.

    Night stages are where it's at. They've got open explorable areas, which is a nice change from long strip of track over a huge pit, which is only appropriate in so many instances. I've never felt trapped in them, whereas with say Windmill Isle Day Act 2 I felt like I was way too boxed in.

    EDIT: wow
     
  3. Sonic Warrior TJ

    Sonic Warrior TJ

    O'Doyle Rules Member
    I agree wholeheartedly.

    Here's our basic Sonic formula.
    1. Platforming (may or may not be 2D/sidescrolling).
    2. Attain high speed by dodging obstacles to gain enough momentum to do so (rather than hit a Dash Panel every ten feet, or a "Boost" button)
    3. Run fast (may or may not be because of 2).
    4. I HAVE NO UNDERSTANDING OF THE SONIC ENGINE.

    Like, very basic. Two of those are pretty much missing and have been for years.

    And also, Sonic's legs aren't "wheel-like" in nature anymore. That's where a lot of the aesthetic appeal came from, for me anyway, especially when you fly off a ledge or a ramp, and they're still spinning.
     
  4. OSM

    OSM

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    Um, muteKi? Is there a reason you copy pasted your entire post?
     
  5. Phos

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    I also feel like the daytime stages in Unleashed are too constricting, control is plucked away from the player way too often, and many times there's simply no point in doing anything. The old games had these kinds of things here and there, but now the player's role has become simply steering Sonic during the tiny portions in between the scripted sections.

    And pits. They need to go. Personally, I feel like even the ones in the classic games are mistakes.
     
  6. OSM

    OSM

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    I don't remember many bottomless pits in the classic games aside from the later on levels or landing in between zone props(GHZ Act 2), but I do agree they have become rather abundant lately and quite annoying to deal with. What's wrong with having whole complete levels to explore without cheap deaths? I personally think when moments like this occur that Sonic Team needs a little lesson in proper level design.
     
  7. RedStripedShoes

    RedStripedShoes

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    Absolutely. If the designers MUST limit the player's ability to explore, walls can be used for that.
     
  8. OSM

    OSM

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    Which is why I'm also grateful for the new wall jumping moves. Fun as hell to pull off and rightly quick paced. :colbert:
     
  9. Sonic Warrior TJ

    Sonic Warrior TJ

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    Levels just lack (vertical) layers anymore. Several Sonic Zones have had a "bottom layer" of sorts.

    The newer games also prevent Sonic from traveling in the opposite direction (most of the time), whereas you weren't just going right 90-100% of the time back then. 3D Sonic games feel like they have a lack of depth because they do: They camera pretty much points forward the whole time, save for gimmicks, and there's little to no reason to turn around and go the other way, hence the "go forward to win" mentality. Even when you're platforming in Unleashed, you're still just "going forward to win", there just isn't ground under you.
     
  10. muteKi

    muteKi

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    Sorry about that. Apparently something between the site and me fucked up. Sorted out, thank goodness.


    And yeah, I agree with what Phos has said -- to a point. I'm not opposed to boost pads, for example, as much as some are, but things like that shouldn't be placed in long series such that the player has no control. Dragon Road Day 1 in particular has a bunch of areas that may take some skill in getting to, but upon reaching them Sonic is entirely automated (actually, several don't even have boost pads).


    And I absolutely detest water running and the bobsled for similar reasons, one of the main ones for water running being the lack of turning. Holoska is a pretty nice-looking level but it's not very fun to play.

    Simple tracks over empty space, as Super Mario Sunshine and Super Mario Galaxy have shown, can be quite fun to play through, but they shouldn't be the majority of the gameplay. The night stages are some of the best applications of the third dimension in a Sonic game since Speed Highway (which I have a love/hate relationship with), Sky Deck, and most of Lost World.
     
  11. Sonic Warrior TJ

    Sonic Warrior TJ

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    Water Running wouldn't be so bad if water didn't mean instant death. Why can't we go underwater anymore? Is it really that hard in this day and age? If we could have water levels where we can actually go in water, running over water should be something cool that occurs if you just happen to be going fast enough.

    Man, me and my friends were trying to figure out mathematically how fast Sonic needs to be going before his feet don't break the water's surface. I think we got tired of trying to look up formulas so we went to get dinner instead.
     
  12. Lobotomy

    Lobotomy

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    <!--quoteo(post=305277:date=May 2 2009, 08:00 PM:name=Sonic Warrior TJ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sonic Warrior TJ @ May 2 2009, 08:00 PM) [​IMG]
     
  13. Insalubrious

    Insalubrious

    The Writing Writer Member
    I agree with this entirely. I had much more fun with the games when I could veer off more than just left or right a bit. What little I played of The Secret Rings just irked me to no end. Never minding the painful controls, that game epitomized going straight and absolutely nothing else. The Black Knight was better, but still nothing spectacular.

    Also, while I think Unleashed was a step in the right direction (kind of), I hated the racing-game feel they gave the day stages. The first time the game told me I could drift, I beat my head against the controller. Turning Sonic into a racecar practically forces the the player into a go-straight-to-win mentality.

    The night stages were a little better, in my opinion. I actually dreaded the day stages and kind of looked forward to the night stages (which is one reason I never finished the game). The problem, though, is that they didn't stand up on their own. Not enough to make up for the day stages. Most of the time, playing a night stage just made me want to replay Kingdom Hearts. I liked the exploration elements offered by the night stages, but as far as 3D Sonic games go, I liked the Knuckles/Rouge stages in SA2 much, much more. Despite being a little wacky, those levels felt tight and well designed, allowing you to explore and really get to know the level.

    Considering all the 3D Sonic games, I absolutely believe it's possible to make something really great. I've enjoyed pieces of all the games, but just not enough of those pieces in any one game. Unleashed offered some nice possibilities, that's for sure, but it's going to take a good lot of work to weed out the bad and leave just the good.
     
  14. The Pulse

    The Pulse

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  15. Chimpo

    Chimpo

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    There's nothing wrong with Sonic's new running animation, quit your whining.
     
  16. Sonic Warrior TJ

    Sonic Warrior TJ

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    Yeah, Sonic moves his legs crazy fast when he's running crazy fast, but there's just no flair to the animation, in my opinion anyway. Sonic's legs running in a circle/wheel shape made him look crazy fast. Today, he runs the same way Naruto and several other anime characters do. Like some kind of fucking bird.
     
  17. Chimpo

    Chimpo

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    That's just like, your opinion man
     
  18. Sonic Warrior TJ

    Sonic Warrior TJ

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    While Sonic's running animation in Brawl was a nice throwback, I still feel like it's not too different than what it's been, just with motion blur. I dunno, whatever, just personal preference I guess. I'm just weird when it comes to Sonic's character portrayal. And I miss spinny legs.
     
  19. Herm the Germ

    Herm the Germ

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    I dunno, to me, the daytime-stages felt fun, but at the same time, many of the worse aspects of 3D-Sonic were brought in, too (at least in the Wii-Version). One being a fixed camera à la Sonic and the Secret Rings, or rather, camera-based movements (especially annoying when boosting, since there just AREN'T any camera-controls and you ALWAYS boost in the direction of the camera, regardless of where Sonic is facing). The other being an awkward-feeling jumping and homing attack, to me, personally. Dunno, but it coulda been so much better, if ye ask me. It happened before.
     
  20. Phos

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    There isn't some massive flaw with it, the thing is that it has no punch, and it could be any given anime character's running animation. I also hate the way his quills just trail limply behind him, especially considering that aerodynamics would pull they outwards. It looks like he's underwater to my eye.
     
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