The Current Sonic timeline

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Master Emerald, Jan 1, 2019.

  1. Multi Battler

    Multi Battler

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    I know it sounds lazy from a narrative perspective, but it's not impossible. While I wouldn't consider it canon, think of it as a form of breaking the 4th wall. All you need is a power jewel or a superform that does exactly that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
  2. TheInvisibleSun

    TheInvisibleSun

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    Secret Rings was directly referenced in Generations (The Storybook games aren't really an issue anyway, since they are very isolated incidents that don't conflict with anything).
     
  3. HedgeHayes

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    Oh, sorry, I commented that to throw away Forces without explaining the interpretation I was talking about, but I'll do to clarify this all:

    1) Eggrobos are sent to unearth the source of a mysterious signal coming from Angel Island that it's not Chaos Emerald energy, but reminds of it and that from the time stones. Sonic and Tails follow them.

    2) Eggrobos unearth the Phantom Ruby, Sonic hits it and Phantom Ruby reacts, sending Sonic and Tails to an imaginary world that mixes their memories and a bit more. Hard Boiled Heavies are just part of the dream.

    3) The real Eggrobo gang flees with the Phantom Ruby, Knuckles gets on its way, also gets hit and sent to the illusionary realm; the same, but apart on Knux's head.

    4) Robotnik fell inside the same dream as soon as the regular Eggrobo gang handed him the Ruby, which is what just happened when Death Egg Robo appears at the end of Green Hill Zone.

    5) The three heroes fight their way through the mirage to escape it. Eggman is in fact enjoying the dream since he has the upper hand most of the time, essentially until the final battle happens. The hologram starts to break when Sonic's conquering its own dream, causing the distortion known as "Egg Reverie".

    6) Phantom Ruby uses its last resort to trick Sonic, Sonic chases it but it's enough time for the Ruby to cast its spell again and protect itself.

    7) Meanwhile Mighty and Ray arrive, but just in time to get caught by the recycled spell, which got that bigger to trap the full gang on a single strike but also forced it to contain the five heroes in the same illusion at the same time.

    8) Sonic's gang beats the illusion again, but this time Phantom Ruby was wiser about when to run away, so no one knows where it is when they wake up from this twisted dream they had at the shore of the jungle of the floating island (right after the celebration in Mirage Saloon).


    And, well, that's all. We have yet to know where the Phantom Ruby really is now, and what will the heroes and Robotnik do about it next. For anyone wondering, Chaotix and Segasonic Arcade happened for Mighty and Ray to be there, their "Mania mode" doesn't have to. I can consider Mania canon because, from my point of view, it doesn't really "happen", save for the intro and a collective nap of undetermined duration.
     
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  4. AngelKOR

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    Well, that would be if the ruby only created illusions and the virtual reality thing. From what I’ve seen, only eggman’s ruby prototypes and finalized version (Infinite’s) do that. The real ruby is able to warp space time and create pocked dimensions. So basically the thing forces explained was about the prototypes. The real one can do that and much more.
     
  5. HedgeHayes

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    Sorry, I never took into account Forces, I don't really know what was going on on that game. What I'm talking about is just what I see on the game I have. Have the real powers of the Phantom Ruby been ever explained in some place not named Sonic Forces? I haven't seen that explanation in the manual of Mania, if it's there.
     
  6. AngelKOR

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    I think they explained where eggman got the Ruby in the tie in comics to forces sadly it was never explained in-game. They also explain that Eggman was trying to re-create the ruby hence all prototypes in forces.
     
  7. Pengi

    Pengi

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    In the early scripts, the "Valtron" (Phantom Ruby) was something Eggman invented, wasn't it?

    When they rewrote it so that the Phantom Ruby was something Eggman found, the prototypes didn't make sense anymore. It was pretty sloppy, since the core game still treats the Ruby and Infinite as Eggman's creations - you only know otherwise if you read the prequel comics, or play the Shadow DLC or Sonic Mania.
     
  8. AngelKOR

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    While I do agree like they treat infinite as if eggman created him, the only one that actually knew who he was was shadow, and he even forgot about him.
    I think eggman just wanted to recreate what he found while studying the ruby so I think it still makes sense. And as for what I can see, the most eggman got out of it was a "real" virtual reality.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
  9. HedgeHayes

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    Prequel comics were a western thing, more a marketing trick than worldwide canon. You're still talking about Forces while the Phantom Ruby is a Mania thing they later borrowed for that other game. Had they not decide to tie the games, or make Mania at all, Valtron would have been the McGuffin present in Forces.

    As you say, there's no explanation about the Ruby in Mania, and only some shoehorned explanations in Forces to tie both games. While I may be wrong (only TaxTeam knows the truth), and I said it was my interpretation from the very beginning, there's no evidence of what I explained not being the real thing about Mania, especially when I'm only taking into account classic 2D games and not the ever growing list of retconning plotholes Sonic Team makes in modern games.
     
  10. Chainspike

    Chainspike

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    The Valtron is the Phantom Ruby under an earlier name. Sonic Mania used the Phantom Ruby to try and give some explanation as to why Sonic and Co. visited random places from the past, and to tie the game in with Sonic Forces. The Phantom Ruby was borrowed from Forces.
     
  11. David The Lurker

    David The Lurker

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    Well that's no fun.

    There only being seven Chaos Emeralds makes sense in the overall Sonic universe narrative. The term "Super Emerald," in retrospect, comes across as a game term and not something that is meant to be a unique item. But to discount the Japanese manual for Sonic 3 feels like a disservice. It seems odd to think Sonic Team would be actively retconing the first half of a game as they were finishing up the second half. While we don't know the exact timeline of when the backstory was developed, or when the opening of the game was switched over to feature Super Sonic, the team purposefully wrote a story in which Knuckles the Echidna is guarding a set of seven Chaos Emeralds. That must mean something, not just some random leftover from an early concept of the game.

    The Chaos Emeralds as presented in Sonic 3 do not remain a static object as they do in Sonic 1 and 2, they go through a significant transformation. They do not simply grow in size near the Master Emerald, but by the time the game is done, they have fundamentally changed shape. I know a common theory thrown out over the years is that we the player must have seen the Emeralds from a top down view in Sonic 1 and 2, but the special stages in vanilla Sonic 3 disprove that notion. They have a very specific shape, one that is not revisited in any future game. Starting with the Saturn version of 3D Blast and continuing onwards, they are rendered the way the "Super Emeralds" are shaped. When Sonic jumps into the glowing Special Stage ring in Mushroom Hill and is transported to the Hidden Palace Zone, he witnesses the emeralds he has collected rise up off screen, then return as large, grey, diamond cut gems. Gems that in the special stages of S&K match the shape. Gems that he "restores," their color returning.

    The sequence in the Hidden Palace Zone, the grey Super Emeralds that must be restored, is all visual storytelling. The grey is a cue that something is missing, and Sonic has to fix it. But what is missing? What is Sonic actually trying to do? There's far too much thought in the Hidden Palace shrine to be brushed aside as just an excuse for gameplay. Even if Sonic Team wasn't entirely sure what they wanted to convey, they wanted the "Super Emeralds" to mean something. Which then continued through the Sonic series we know today.

    There are two other instances we see the Emeralds turn grey. Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Adventure. In Adventure, when they are grey, Tikal states that Chaos has absorbed the negative half of the emeralds, just as he did three thousand years prior. In the past sections of the Mystic Ruins, you can see the shrine as it once was, with a set of seven emeralds sitting upon pillars just as large as they were in the Hidden Palace Zone, and in the same shape. But we don't see all the details regarding Chaos being stopped the first time...

    Is it possible that the "negative half" of the emeralds somehow manifested into the Chaos Emeralds we saw during 1, 2, and the first half of 3? That the echidna's closely guarded a set of seven that remained hidden on Angel Island, but the other half effected history as evidenced by the legends of South and West Side Island? That somehow, Sonic merged the two halves together to form the Chaos Emeralds that we have seen since? There's nothing in the games that explicitly states there were two sets of emeralds that merged into one, but it makes the most sense to me. The Sonic 3 manual makes it clear Knuckles had his own set of Chaos Emeralds, but by Sonic Adventure, there is only one set. And doesn't it make more sense for Knuckles to punch Sonic in the beginning of Sonic 3, see the Chaos Emeralds, and chuckle to himself thinking "oh yeah these are mine Eggman must have been right!" The alternative is he punches Sonic, see those emeralds fly out of him, he shrugs, and then...throws them into the special stage for some reason?

    When we fast forward to Adventure, Super Sonic defeating Perfect Chaos would in essence be Sonic restoring the emeralds again, stopping whatever caused the two halves to be separate physical entities. Sonic found a way to fix things that Tikal wasn't able to do.

    (oh man maybe Super Sonic in Sonic 2 is buff because they are negative emeralds and evil equals buff right this is definitely canon and not just a dumb joke)

    Spinball almost feels like a part of the Archie series, what with it playing with both the early concepts of SatAM and AoStH. Not saying that was the intention, but it doesn't really fit into the game universe. STI wasn't against the idea of using the tv shows as inspiration for their games, as evidenced by the early forms of Sonic X-treme for the 32X. But even if the team behind Spinball was trying to make a game that fit the world of Sonic 1 and 2, the powers that be wanted to make it clear that it wasn't one and the same. The Japanese manual clearly states the planet the game takes place on is Mobius, a name that is never used in any other Japanese manual. Even if you read it as Robotnik appearing on a random planet named Mobius, the text makes it sound like Sonic is from there, and that he certainly didn't follow Eggman on some weird space trip. They wanted a differentiation from the get-go, that Spinball was a weird American spinoff and not the next entry in the series. Kinda like how Sonic Boom became Sonic Toon over there.

    also eggman can change size what does that mean

    Sonic Adventure is both the culmination of the lore established with in the original games, and the start of a new era. Sonic Adventure 2 began a new story, defining what would come over the next few years. But unlike the Game Gear games of the classic era, the handheld titles for this time period really felt like side stories that helped flesh out the overall narrative they were building. Advance 2 introduced Cream, Battle dived into the world of the ARK with Gerald's journal. There is something oddly satisfying when you look at the sequence of Adventure 2 --> Advance 2 --> Heroes --> Shadow --> Battle --> Advance 3 as one long story told in the world of Sonic. And if you place Advance 1 and Pinball Party after Adventure 2? In that context, you have a narrative that gives you some brief adventures that make the player go "oh, guess Shadow is really dead oh wait here he is back in Heroes what the heck." His return becomes the shocking moment that it is meant to be.

    You can argue how effective the stories were executed in those games. I certainly can't point to Shadow the Hedgehog as a flawless piece of storytelling. But there was a certain consistency that ran through all those titles, just as there was a consistency through the classic era from 1991 to 1997. Sonic 06 felt like it wanted to be a launching off point as Sonic Adventure was, with the handheld titles of Rush and Rivals feeding into the overarching story in perhaps even greater detail than the Game Boy Advance games ever did. But it never quite got off the ground, so the entire thing feels muddled in retrospect. The fact people still argue about Silver, Blaze, and Eggman Nega's backstories is proof of that.

    Of all the games in the Sonic the Hedgehog tapestry, Forces seems the trickiest when it comes to just having things slide in and make sense. It doesn't feel like previous games in the series went out of their way to contradict what happened before, but Forces loves to do that. The way Tails and Knuckles act, the simple fact Silver is there with no explanation, and the function of the Phantom Ruby. It's a head scratcher, but not an impossible task. You can try to resolve them, but it can enter full on fanfic/headcannon mode, instead of utilizing primary sources to fill in the gaps.

    Even still, one thing that still bothers me is Tails stating Classic Sonic is "from another dimension." Why would Tails come to this conclusion? He has engaged with this version of Sonic in Generations, where he knew time travel was at play. Why make the leap and go "oh yeah you're not from the past anymore." Sonic is by himself, it's not like there's a Tails with him that can go "oh yeah we're not you from the past, we came from somewhere else." It's possible Classic Sonic just doesn't know or care, but Tails' relationship with this Sonic has always struck me as some weird...kid/pet thing? Like, Tails isn't looking at Sonic as a friend, but more a pet that he needs to take care of.

    (you could try to argue that maybe he meant dimension as in time is the fourth dimension and there was a sonic book called sonic in the fourth dimension that dealt with time travel but that's not canon to the games where am i going with this)

    I think the main reason I'm not a fan of Classic Sonic being its own thing is because that would make Sonic Mania a game that is unto itself. For Sonic Adventure to work, the classic games must have happened. Modern Sonic, even in Forces, is presented as a character that went through Sonic Adventure. Sonic Generations is a time travel story, but I'd argue that Classic Sonic doesn't see enough for him to properly predict anything in his future, and that Sonic is such a laid back character in general, he might not go out of his way to prevent things since he knows things must have gone well if he's alive and celebrating his birthday in the future. Sonic isn't warning his past self of anything. Classic Eggman is also just as much left in the dark. In the post credits scene, he asks his future self if they ever win. Modern Eggman doesn't go into any detail. Heck, it's possible that Classic Eggman's need to avoid the failure of his future self is what sets him off to do some of the plans he ends up pulling off in the future! If they were so easily able to take over the Time Eater, why wouldn't it be just as easy to take control of, say, a god of destruction?

    If there was truly a split, that means Mania happens, and...that's it. Sure, Classic runs about in Forces, then comes back in Encore mode only for things to end in a bit of a cliffhanger. But if that cliffhanger just lingers forever and we never get a followup? Why have Mania be it's own thing? If we do get a few more games that follow on Mania, games that make that world feel unique and separate from what eventually happens in Adventure-onward, then I'd be ok with the idea of a timeline split. But until then, I'd rather it just be part of the larger tapestry of the Sonic universe. Heck, even if we do get a followup or three, I'd much rather have it be part of a single timeline. But it all depends on the story they want to tell.

    It's funny how Mania's Encore mode does pick up from the main campaign and can ignore Forces entirely (even if the digital manual does say it happened). It's also funny how Mania Adventures picks up from Forces' ending in a way that makes more sense visually. oh god does mania actually create seven timelines like seven emeralds or
     
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  12. Sir_mihael

    Sir_mihael

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    The lack of Master Emerald focus in that Sonic 3 manual makes me think that that's exactly what happened. Sonic Team just wrote something that fit with Sonic 3 (standalone) and weren't bothered if the next part changed things up.

    I never felt like it was a massive retcon though. The overall outline is the same even without the 'Island Emeralds' factor.

    -Knuckles guards the Shrine (Master Emerald only edition)
    -Death Egg lands. Everything gets shaken up.
    -Knuckles goes checks things out
    -Eventually meets Eggman, who tells him about the Chaos Emeralds
    -Knuckles knows about these from his ancestors' history, and knows they should belong on the Island. Sets out to Chuckle and Flex Muscle.

    I mean, maybe it WAS originally written with Super Emeralds in mind for Part 2, but I feel like the Master Emerald would have been given some focus if that were the case - strangely I think Fleetway's StC had a good take on this with 'split Emeralds', but that's it's own thing entirely...
     
  13. Pengi

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    The comic stories were plotted by Sonic Team. Japanese language versions were featured on the Japanese Sonic Forces website.

    I think it was written with the second half in mind, but the finer details of the second half's story changed during development. After all, the emerald altar is something only featured in the second half. More tellingly, is this line:

    There was concept art of Super Sonic and a dragon in space.

    In the final game of course, Super Sonic fights an Eggman shaped mech in space instead, and the emerald altar mural depicts that rather than a dragon.

    So just as the dragon became a giant Eggman robot, the Pillar became the Master Emerald.

    Interestingly though, while Sonic 3's manual mentions a Pillar but no Master Emerald, and S&K's manual mentions the Master Emerald but no Pillar, the prologue in Chaotix's manual attempts to bridge the gap by referring to the "Master Emerald Pillar".
     
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  14. Linkabel

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    I've always wondered if they took the dragon concept and applied it to the Perfect Chaos design and later the mural in Lost World/Mystic Ruins.
     
  15. I assume that to be the case. It definitely seems like Adventure was one last attempt by the original Sonic Team to implement the ideas they came up with for Sonic 2 and 3K.
     
  16. HedgeHayes

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    Sorry, I got the info wrong back in the day, then. Funny because it looked like a lot better idea the other way. Ugh, I don't want to learn more about Forces to try to fix my interpretation, luckily I probably won't have to as long as ignore Sonic's 3D lifespan.