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That's a...Chaos Emerald!

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by David The Lurker, Jan 29, 2010.

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  1. Crappy Blue

    Crappy Blue

    Knuckles' Chaotix is a perfect game with no flaws Member
    I like the theory of there being two sets of Chaos Emeralds, at least to a certain point. I see it as this:

    Dr. Robotnik steals Knuckles' set, convinces him to think Sonic stole them, causing Knuckles to steal Sonic's set.
    Robotnik hides all of Knuckles' Emeralds in the Special Stages, which is what Sonic collects.
    Knuckles' Emeralds are then powered up by the Master Emerald into the Super Emeralds. Permanently.
    Sonic's Emeralds continue to be Chaos Emeralds, and the same ones used throughout the rest of the series.
  2. Shadix


    As much as I want there to be an official explaination for this, I'm still a proponent that SA-onwards are in a different continuity and that trying to draw connections to the original games isn't really plausible.
  3. David The Lurker

    David The Lurker

    For some mysterious reason... Administrator
    I never said that they were in the exact same place between the two...I just said they weren't warped away into any sort of special stage. Of course, I could get into a whole other argument about why Tails has one (why would they reward him for saving Station Square after it had been destroyed by Perfect Chaos) but this isn't really the place.

    The 3D games are different stylistically, but there really isn't anything saying its a different universe...the story to Sonic Adventure compliments the original games really well. Especially to Sonic 3 & Knuckles. They actually told in detail the story in Sonic 3 manual...
  4. Phos


    Going for the high score on whatever that little b Member
    Events that take place during Sonic 3 require there to be two sets of Emeralds. The best example is Launch Base Zone: The Death Egg requires the Emeralds to launch, that's the reason why Robotnik was on Angel Island to start with AND you can be Super Sonic during the level, as well as during one of the boss fights that takes place during the Death Egg's launch.

    Keep in ind that the Japanese manual isn't inherently more correct than the US manuals, particularly where Sonic 2 and 3 are concerned. Both of those games were made in America. Both manuals imply that Knuckles has been guarding several Emeralds for a sustained length of time. Also note that I don't ignore the 8 emeralds from Fighters, they actually make sense under the assumption that there are more than seven Emeralds.

    Occam's Razer is going to cut you to ribbons for this. They apparently don't vanish after every game because Sonic still had the Westside Island Emeralds when he arrived on Angel Island. Also note that the Emeralds that Sonic drops are shaped like the ones from Sonic 2 while the Emeralds he collects during Sonic 3 appear to be roughly spherical. The Super Emeralds are the only Emeralds in the game that resemble the Old European cut Emeralds seen in later games.

    And I just remembered this little tidbit: Recall during that embarrassing community challenge, one of the question asked how many emeralds were collected in Sonic 3K, the correct answer was 14.
  5. corneliab


    There is no way that there are multiple sets of emeralds. Something as major as that wouldn't be implied.

    As far as I'm concerned, any inconsistancies can be just chalked up to gameplay quirks (like the issue of special stages).
  6. Ross-Irving


    One of my favorite things to discuss Sonic-wise are rings and the chaos emeralds and what they're supposed to do and how they work.

    Frozen Nitrogen once gave this great explanation in one of his stories about how since the chaos emeralds are unstable and scatter, they're like the shapes of this hyperdimensional whatever it was, and the rings were like the edges that kept everything stable. That's why they always keep reappearing, and that's why they come into existence in the form of geometrical patterns. So then there's the question "Well, how do rings appear on stuff like Robotnik's ships and in his fortress"? Well, rings have to go somewhere, and I think somewhere along the line Robotnik realized the importance of ring power and from then on, engineered artificial, geometrical landmasses and machines that would provide a stable environment for the rings to appear in so he could use their power.

    In Sonic 1, he probably found some real land that provided that environment. There wasn't enough land for rings for him to use as power, so what did he do? He used animals. Badniks! Ta-dah!

    Also, Robotnik isn't as fast as Sonic to enter the special zone, so my guess is that with a bird's eye view, and with his technology, he analyzes ring patterns that are more likely to indicate the presence of a chaos emerald. "Aha"! So he zooms in on that area and starts collecting more and more rings until he has enough power to enter the special zone, without being speedy.

    So, besides Sonic's home island with its natural geometrical landscape, Sonic probably hates the rest of the "zones" and anywhere else that resembles it, since Robotnik had to tear down any real land and replace it for his own purposes.

    Aaaaaand...end fanfiction nonsense.

    Edit- Oh, P.S... I think only seven emeralds exist.
  7. Elratauru


    Little Shiny Emurralds Member
    This is Win.


    Its simple guys...
    Sonic game checklist:

    Furry Characters? Check.
    Floating rings? Check.
    Lot of Cliched Zones? Check.
    Chaos emeralds? Check.
    Lot of Bosses? Check.

    There's no way to explain the emeralds in newer games, I mean, what about 3D Blast? They are fucking there because THEY need to be there to be a Sonic game. The same happens in Heroes or in Sonic Adventure 2... (Altought in this one they are merged with the "plot" >.>)
  8. Skyler


    Neonネオン Cowgirlカウガール Site Staff
    The next audtion
    Quoted for fucking truth. I've settled into the idea that there are just too many inconsistencies between the two eras that it's better to just consider them as two seperate canons.
  9. Tweaker


    Okay, I think you guys are missing the point. This is not about "theories" regarding the Chaos Emeralds; this is what the game's Japanese manual actually said, which is the closest thing to series story canon there is outside of observation when it comes to the first three games. They're certainly more official than the contrived bullshit from the US manual, anyway.

    So the debate is not really what happened—the manual says what happened. The discussion should be about whether or not this seems like a plausible conclusion to reach, as well as if the idea of the Emeralds powering up around the Master Emerald is plausible. This fanfiction fanwankery has absolutely no basis in anything and should be omitted from the discussion.
  10. Phos


    Going for the high score on whatever that little b Member
    The Japanese manual was created with the same impetus as the US manual, and in Sonic 3's case, tells the same story, apart from a few names.

    This seems likely, or at least a good way to conceptualize what took place. Iizuka's brain is so fuzzy that it's hard to clearly explain what took place, but essentially he doesn't seem big on retaining continuity if Journey of Dreams is any indication. There's also the matter of how the older game could possibly follow into the newer games - I simply cannot imagine the events of Sonic CD taking place in the same continuity as the likes of Adventure 2 or 06. Time Travel also works differently in Aught Six.

    Also, submitted for your consideration, the Ideya. They were likely also conceptualized by essentially the same team that created the Chaos Emeralds, and serve a similar role in the plot. There are many sets of Ideya, every person has one, but only a few people posses the Ideya of Courage.
  11. Shadix


    Well, I'm thinking that any official source trying to draw connections between the old games and the new ones is pretty wanky too. Like I understand why they are doing it, but I don't believe when they made Sonic Adventure they were thinking of any sort of continuity. I believe that moreso any connections drawn, official or otherwise, were either tacked on after the fact or by people not directly involved in the actual development.

    Japanese people can make mistakes too.
  12. Jayextee


    Unpopular Opinions™ Member
    Atro City
    So even the official word from Sega isn't to be taken as the official word on this?


    + - Yeah, worth a trashed post.  
  13. OSM


    retro is for losers! Member
    Doing absolutely nothing
    This is what I always believed to be the case.
  14. Azu


    I must be stupid. Member
    I've always believed that the Super Emerald were just evolved forms of the Chaos Emeralds or just dormant bigger Chaos Emeralds that awakened when the Chaos Emeralds where present. As to why the Emeralds looks like the Super Emeralds in the present games is because the emeralds where always brilliant cut and emerald but in S3DB (and the Time Stones would be marquise cut I suppose but that irrelevant)

    I've always believe that the Super Emerald where just evolved forums to the Chaos Emeralds or just dormant bigger Chaos Emeralds that awakened when the Chaos Emeralds where present. As to why the Emeralds lows like the Super Emeralds in the present games is because the emeralds where always brilliant cut ans emerald but in S3DB.

    Of course, Sega/Sonic Team could always change the story on us (though I doubt they would) say and what DigitalDuck said.
  15. stormislandgal


    It's not a phase! Tech Member
    Married life <3
    All of the Chaos Emerald sets are the same. They just show up in random places where Sonic is, or he loses them somehow (ask Samus or Megaman how that happens). Then he finds them again. They exist purely for flair. The Super Emeralds are separate entities. They also exist for flare.

    At least that's what I think. Maybe cause I don't delve deeply and rack my brain trying to figure what everything in a video game means, I dunno. They're not too special, and the fact that they turn you yellow when you suck on their energy is good enough for me.
  16. Frozen Nitrogen

    Frozen Nitrogen

    Wouldn't the door have been easier? Wiki Sysop
    Doesn't that strike you as a little intellectually lazy? :eng101:

    You don't appear to understand what Occam's Razor IS. "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem", - that is, "Entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity".
    Last time I checked, 14 is a multiple of 7. YOU'RE the one suggesting 2 sets of Emeralds where 1 will do the job quite adequately.

    I guess the best defence that there's only one set is that S3&K was the only game to ever even imply that there are more than 7. As I said before, the bulk of the evidence from the sum total of games points overwhelmingly to 7. The fact that they change colour / shape / size on occasion should be of no concern to anyone; they're CHAOS Emeralds and clearly aren't made out of anything so tawdry as standard matter, so to expect their physical properties and behaviour to be consistent isn't... reasonable.

    Ah, non-Euclidian tomography in hemi-integer dimensional spaces. I'm heartened that someone remembers my crazed rambling on tesseracts! :)
  17. MastaSys


    I will just ask one thing.

    If they are two separate sets (Chaos & Super), why in the game they never appear together?
    And when do just bring like 2 Chaos Emeralds to the altar why just appear the respective 2 Super?
    And when you got more Chaos after that the ones you brought to the altar don't appear in the score screen of the special stage but still count as yours, why that? (interpreting from the message, you got all chaos emeralds, now *name* can go to hidden palace.)

    The gameplay makes the player interpret that the two sets are in fact the same. just one version is the powered up version, possibly by the Master Emerald (hence the name)

    And the continuity of Classic Sonic-Modern Sonic, I don't know why I believe it's the same.
    Maybe because even with the contradictions like the size of Angel Island (that is a plot hole that can be easily fixed), things like Amy remember her kidnapping caused by Metal Sonic or the "new" Eggman Empire symbol represents Dr. Robotnik in his old clothes (in Sonic Adventure) make me believe so, but I think this one is more like an personal stance.

    And just to remember here, (regarding a comment here about time travel), Time travel was only used in Little Planet, an "Mythology-like" moon that only appear in X Years to X Years over a lake.
  18. Phos


    Going for the high score on whatever that little b Member
    Is this a joke?

    I don't particularly care about implications when events that take place concurrently during Sonic 3 could not have taken place concurrently had there been only one set of emeralds. I Also don't consider later games to be representative of earlier games. If Sonic's amazing goldeneye ripoff adventure wants to only have seven emeralds, it can have fun with that but I don't care.

    As for the emeralds changing because they're oooooh Chaos Emeralds... The set from Sonic 1 had a different appearence and properties compared to those in Sonic 2. It follows that they are a different set. The emeralds that Sonic has with him at the start of Sonic 3 have the same properties and a similar appearence to those he had at the end of Sonic 2, so these are clearly the same. The emeralds he collects during Sonic 3 are different again in appearence but have the same properties. My theory simply assumes these as different emeralds, something that I have evidence to show for, your theory assumes them to change shape, randomly vanish, be erronously mentioned in the manual as being guarded by Knuckles, that events depected in cut scenes shouldn't be taken as cannon, and still
    doesn't account for the events in Launch Base. My theory also neatly explains why the Chaos Emeralds seen in Adventure look like the super emeralds (they are the super emeralds, but chaos emeralds is a cooler name and still properly describes them), and why the Master Emerald spontaniously combined them (they used to be together anyway), leaving them in a lower energy state (this is how chemical reactions work) that needed to be rexcited.
  19. phoenixwright7


    Cry, and my whip will accommodate! Member
    Considering that we see the emeralds lift up into the air, and then a beam of light strikes 7 platforms creating the Super Emeralds, yeah, I'd say it's plausible. Why something like this doesn't happen in any other game that features the Master Emerald is up to speculation/fanfiction. Maybe it has something to do with the Hidden Palace Zone itself *shrugs*
  20. jasonchrist


    Give Us A Wank Banned
    Sonic Classic Hybrid Project
    One set per island... simple!

    Sonic 1 - 6 emeralds
    Sonic 2 - 7 emeralds
    Sonic 3K - Knuckles twats sonic and steals the 7 from Sonic 2, Sonic says "fuck you then, I'm taking YOUR seven!" which look different. Also keep in mind that the floating island would not be floating if Knuckles emeralds were missing.
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