That's a...Chaos Emerald!

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by David The Lurker, Jan 29, 2010.

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  1. David The Lurker

    David The Lurker

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    Right. So a few of us got into a rousing discussion of the Chaos Emeralds. And the conversation went to how Gerald Robotnik got a hold of the Chaos Emeralds in the first place, and how he knew of Angel Island and was able to reconstruct and exact duplicate of the Master Emerald shrine in the ARK, and how the Chaos Emeralds somehow went from being in the hands of the government to being the stones of legend in Sonic 1...but there's no way to really figure that out without writing fanfiction. The only reason to bring that up is just to point out the flaws in the Sonic Adventure 2 storyline.

    But that's not the main point of this posting. The main point is that there are seven Chaos Emeralds, but there used to be 14.

    Right, so at the end of Sonic the Hedgehog 2, Sonic has the seven Chaos Emeralds in his possession, he's defeated Dr. Eggman, yay. Now, at the beginning of Sonic 3, Sonic still has them, runs into Angel Island, and Knuckles steals them. That's all fine and dandy. But no one ever really stops to think why Knuckles would steal them (aside from being an ass). And that's because Knuckles thinks he's stealing HIS emeralds back.

    In the Japanese Sonic 3 manual, Knuckles' origin goes into how he is guardian of 7 Chaos Emeralds, and that they all vanish when the Death Egg strikes into the island. And because Eggman tricks Knuckles, our favorite echidna thinks he's just taking back what is rightfully his. So during the course of the game, Sonic eventually reclaims one set of the Emeralds, and then entering the Hidden Palace Zone, a reaction occurs, having the emeralds become enlarged, fitting in their proper locations around the Master Emerald. And so the next seven special stages are him powering up the "Super Emeralds," basically joining together the two sets, giving them their proper form and all that. That helps explain why the Chaos Emeralds look so different between the Mega Drive and Dreamcast.

    Just to help tie everything together, in the past segments of the Mystic Ruins, the Chaos Emeralds are plainly seen sitting around that game's Master Emerald shrine. And they are quite huge, if you fly up there with Tails or climb up with Knuckles. They are as big as...say, the Super Emeralds! And yet through the rest of the game they are palm sized. The only time you see any huge emeralds are in the past segments of Sonic Adventure, and in the Hidden Palace of Sonic & Knuckles.

    You could go on to say that there were two sets, one light and one dark, which was caused by Perfect Chaos' first attack...but that didn't actually happened during the battle in Station Square. But then you could argue that the ensuing battle didn't give the emeralds the chance to split again before they were restored. But this whole paragraph is pure fanwankery.

    However, that doesn't change the fact that it was stated explicitly in the Japanese manual that Knuckles guarded his own set of Chaos Emeralds, and that in the course of the game you end up with only one set of emeralds that look different than the Chaos Emeralds from the first two games, and which maintain that style through the rest of the series up to this point.

    And I can't be the only one who knows this here. Because I've read people talk about it before. So yeah...am I just crazy, or is this not common knowledge?
     
  2. Chaos Knux

    Chaos Knux

    Stable avatar temporary. Randomizer site down. Misfit
    So... S3&K happened last of ALL the Sonic games? If not, how did the emeralds shrink again? Inb4 Sonic X alternate dimensions.
     
  3. Tweaker

    Tweaker

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    <!--quoteo(post=402128:date=Jan 28 2010, 09:01 PM:name=Chaos Knux)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chaos Knux @ Jan 28 2010, 09:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=402128">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So... S3&K happened last of ALL the Sonic games? If not, how did the emeralds shrink again? Inb4 Sonic X alternate dimensions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    What are you talking about? The idea is basically that there were two sets of Chaos Emeralds—one on Westside Island, that Sonic had, and one on Angel Island, that Knuckles guarded—that merged together as the "Super Emeralds" at the end of Sonic 3 & Knuckles. The Chaos Emeralds from this point on were then the Super Emeralds no longer being referred to as such, assuming you subscribe to the idea that they merged together to become more powerful.

    The other idea is that the Super Emeralds are only "super" as long as they are enhanced by the power of the Master Emerald, hence Hyper Sonic. But that's basically an aside more than anything else.
     
  4. Sonic Warrior TJ

    Sonic Warrior TJ

    O'Doyle Rules Member
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->they all vanish when the Death Egg strikes into the island<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Maybe they fell in the water, and that's why Sonic jumped off the Tornado at the beginning of Sonic 3.

    He's technically supposed to lose them after every game, or else he would've kept them from Sonic 1 into Sonic 2, and so on and so forth in every other game.
     
  5. 0r4ng3

    0r4ng3

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    <!--quoteo(post=402131:date=Jan 29 2010, 02:09 AM:name=Tweaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tweaker @ Jan 29 2010, 02:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=402131">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The other idea is that the Super Emeralds are only "super" as long as they are enhanced by the power of the Master Emerald, hence Hyper Sonic. But that's basically an aside more than anything else.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'm an apologist of this theory. The two sets of emeralds were always a bit too much for me.

    That bit of the emeralds being lost when the death egg strikes in... I don't know. I've never heard of it. I thought Knuckles had the emeralds at some point in his lfe, then lost them, enter Sonic 1 and 2, and then they returned to Angel Island with Sonic. I never read manuals. :\
     
  6. Frozen Nitrogen

    Frozen Nitrogen

    Wouldn't the door have been easier? Wiki Sysop
    <!--quoteo(post=402123:date=Jan 29 2010, 01:53 AM:name=David The Lurker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (David The Lurker @ Jan 29 2010, 01:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=402123">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, that doesn't change the fact that it was stated explicitly in the Japanese manual that Knuckles guarded his own set of Chaos Emeralds, and that in the course of the game you end up with only one set of emeralds that look different than the Chaos Emeralds from the first two games, and which maintain that style through the rest of the series up to this point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Just because it said it IN KANJI doesn't stop it being woefully inconsistent with all other evidence.

    It's pretty clear from the games overall that there are seven Emeralds, there are ONLY seven Emeralds, and there have ALWAYS been seven Emeralds. If we can overlook the 6 in Sonic 1 or the 8 in Sonic the Fighters or the however-many in Sonic Spinball, then we can overlook one line from a Japanese manual.

    Besides:
    [Prospective timeline follows; I AM a fanfic writer so :P ]
    (Assuming that the Super Emeralds are just the normal Chaos Emeralds that sometimes get (for some reason) supersized in the presence of the ME)

    * 4,000 years ago there's a shrine in the Mystic Ruins for the ME and Super-Emerald-sized CEs
    * Pachacamac kills Chao; Perfect Chaos ROID RAGES; emeralds scatter a'la Dragonballz
    * Remaining echidnas on Floating Island get Troll's Remorse and decide to guard the ME underground; build Hidden Palace
    * Build Hidden Palace WITH SPACES FOR the Chaos Emeralds even though they don't actually have them right now; but they want somewhere to put them if/when they ever get them back
    * Many years later, Sonic gets the Emeralds on South / Westside Island
    * Brings them to Angel Island
    * Knuckles takes them MAINLY just because Robotnik told him to, but also because there's vague ancient records about how 7 smaller emeralds belong with the Master Emerald
    * Chaos Emeralds warp themselves back into the special zone (as they do between EVERY GAME) before Knux can do anything with them
    * Sonic gets them back while on the Floating Island
    * And Sonic eventually takes them to the HPZ. When Sonic stepped through the big ring was the first time those 7 plinths had ever actually been occupied.

    As for Gerald; presumably he got a looka at the same kind of Echidna records as Ivo did to learn about Chaos. Could have reconstituted the Emerald Shrine from records without having to visit the Floating Island at all.

    qed
     
  7. Jayextee

    Jayextee

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    It always seemed like there were multiple variants of "the" Chaos Emeralds. Like in later Sonic games, they're just stumbled across -- and in sonic Riders (where they're the admission price for the event), the characters all nonchalantly get them out of their back pockets as if they had one in their wallet. And, of course, there are more than 7 entrants.

    You can argue that it's "not canon", but having Chaos Emeralds just lying around in safes in SA2 is sorta stupid, as is "Look what I FOUND!".
     
  8. <!--quoteo(post=402138:date=Jan 28 2010, 09:14 PM:name=Sonic Warrior TJ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sonic Warrior TJ @ Jan 28 2010, 09:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=402138">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->they all vanish when the Death Egg strikes into the island<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Maybe they fell in the water, and that's why Sonic jumped off the Tornado at the beginning of Sonic 3.

    He's technically supposed to lose them after every game, or else he would've kept them from Sonic 1 into Sonic 2, and so on and so forth in every other game.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Well lets see:

    Sonic Adventure (Past):
    The Chaos Emeralds in the past were originally the Super Emeralds, however when Tikal tried to stop the enemies the emeralds reverted back to normal and warped to the Special Stages, preparing for the 1st Sonic game.

    Sonic 1:
    Sonic collects the Emeralds from the Special Zone. The collected Emeralds fix the environment, and warp back to the Special Zone in Sonic 2.

    Sonic 2:
    Sonic recollects the Emeralds (He finds another to boot) and learns a more powerful form with them. He keeps the Emeralds as they escape the Death Egg.

    Sonic 3:
    Sonic has the Emeralds, but Knuckles steals them and hides them in the Special Stages. Sonic collects them all again and beats Robotnik at Launch Base.

    Sonic & Knuckles:
    Sonic finds the Hidden Palace and the Master Emerald. The Chaos Emeralds react to the Master Emerald, turn Super, but become dormant. Sonic goes through the Special Stages again to reactivate them and learns his Hyper form. He then returns them to the Island as they leave for the mainland.

    Sonic Adventure (Present)
    In the present, with Chaos escaping and the Master Emerald shattered, the emeralds split apart and land in different areas around the world. All the characters besides E123 collect them all, Sonic turns Super and beats Perfect Chaos.
     
  9. Vaiz

    Vaiz

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    So wait, are we actually suggesting canon exists in Sonic games outside of a VERY vague idea of what happened when (Barring Sonic 2 to Sonic 3K, which had a pretty consistent plot thread.)? I mean, come on. In Sonic Adventure, the world is pretty much 1999 Earth. In Sonic Riders, it's fucking Corascant.
     
  10. Neoblast

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    <!--quoteo(post=402150:date=Jan 28 2010, 09:34 PM:name=RGamer2009)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RGamer2009 @ Jan 28 2010, 09:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=402150">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=402138:date=Jan 28 2010, 09:14 PM:name=Sonic Warrior TJ)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sonic Warrior TJ @ Jan 28 2010, 09:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=402138">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->they all vanish when the Death Egg strikes into the island<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Maybe they fell in the water, and that's why Sonic jumped off the Tornado at the beginning of Sonic 3.

    He's technically supposed to lose them after every game, or else he would've kept them from Sonic 1 into Sonic 2, and so on and so forth in every other game.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Well lets see:

    Sonic Adventure (Past):
    The Chaos Emeralds in the past were originally the Super Emeralds, however when Tikal tried to stop the enemies the emeralds reverted back to normal and warped to the Special Stages, preparing for the 1st Sonic game.

    Sonic 1:
    Sonic collects the Emeralds from the Special Zone. The collected Emeralds fix the environment, and warp back to the Special Zone in Sonic 2.

    Sonic 2:
    Sonic recollects the Emeralds (He finds another to boot) and learns a more powerful form with them. He keeps the Emeralds as they escape the Death Egg.

    Sonic 3:
    Sonic has the Emeralds, but Knuckles steals them and hides them in the Special Stages. Sonic collects them all again and beats Robotnik at Launch Base.

    Sonic & Knuckles:
    Sonic finds the Hidden Palace and the Master Emerald. The Chaos Emeralds react to the Master Emerald, turn Super, but become dormant. Sonic goes through the Special Stages again to reactivate them and learns his Hyper form. He then returns them to the Island as they leave for the mainland.

    Sonic Adventure (Present)
    In the present, with Chaos escaping and the Master Emerald shattered, the emeralds split apart and land in different areas around the world. All the characters besides E123 collect them all, Sonic turns Super and beats Perfect Chaos.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That's pretty much what I think about them, it's not that there are 2 sets of emeralds, just one.
    Super Emeralds are just powered up emerlads by the master emerald.
    I think it's the most reasonable ( canon wise ) theory of all...
     
  11. Let's just say <a href="http://www.pastebin.ca/1770237" target="_blank">this</a> is from a certain .docx on my computer. In abstract:
    <ul><li>The Chaos Emeralds were scattered after Perfect Chaos attacked</li><li>The Super Emeralds were created centuries after Perfect Chaos and are larger as a result of the Echidnas trying to recreate the Chaos Emeralds</li><li>As some have mentioned, Hyper Sonic is a result of the proximity of the Emeralds to the Master Emerald, not the Super Emeralds themselves</li></ul>
    If you guys really want me to get into fanwank territory, I can, but I'm answering the question posed by the OP and would prefer waiting until I have everything in my project together before I reveal more than I have.
     
  12. GeneHF

    GeneHF

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    <!--quoteo(post=402150:date=Jan 28 2010, 09:34 PM:name=RGamer2009)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RGamer2009 @ Jan 28 2010, 09:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=402150">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sonic Adventure (Present)
    In the present, with Chaos escaping and the Master Emerald shattered, the emeralds split apart and land in different areas around the world. All the characters besides E123 collect them all, Sonic turns Super and beats Perfect Chaos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    ...uh... huh...

    How about the Super Emeralds just don't exist at all and were just add-ons to make the "full version" of the game more appealing, giving you something to work for on the second half instead of just using Super Sonic once you got all the emeralds in the S3 levels?
     
  13. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

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    How about every island/location/game has their own set of Chaos/Super Emeralds, and they're not meant to be consistent from game to game?
     
  14. Vaiz

    Vaiz

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    <!--quoteo(post=402158:date=Jan 28 2010, 07:05 PM:name=DigitalDuck)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DigitalDuck @ Jan 28 2010, 07:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=402158">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->How about every island/location/game has their own set of Chaos/Super Emeralds, and they're not meant to be consistent from game to game?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You. I like you. I don't even know you, but I like the way you think. Simple and to the point.
     
  15. Frozen Nitrogen

    Frozen Nitrogen

    Wouldn't the door have been easier? Wiki Sysop
    It would seem there is little consensus on the matter. :colbert:
     
  16. Having each game have its own set of emeralds is boooring. ;)
     
  17. David The Lurker

    David The Lurker

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    <!--quoteo(post=402146:date=Jan 28 2010, 09:23 PM:name=Frozen Nitrogen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frozen Nitrogen @ Jan 28 2010, 09:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=402146">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=402123:date=Jan 29 2010, 01:53 AM:name=David The Lurker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (David The Lurker @ Jan 29 2010, 01:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=402123">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->However, that doesn't change the fact that it was stated explicitly in the Japanese manual that Knuckles guarded his own set of Chaos Emeralds, and that in the course of the game you end up with only one set of emeralds that look different than the Chaos Emeralds from the first two games, and which maintain that style through the rest of the series up to this point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Just because it said it IN KANJI doesn't stop it being woefully inconsistent with all other evidence.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    This bothers me. When they were making Sonic 3, they knew they were going to make the Master Emerald. They could have used that in the manual. But they specifically mentioned a set of seven Chaos Emeralds. And its not like they said it once. They said it a few times. And the classic Sonic Team doesn't seem like the type to screw up this sort of detail.

    If Eggman really asked Knuckles to steal the Chaos Emeralds from Sonic, why didn't Knuckles just give them to Eggman? Why did he instead throw them into the Hidden Palace zone or the Special Stage or wherever he ended up throwing that pair? To just go and say "oh they warped away before Knuckles could do anything with them" just seems silly. It seems like it would make sense for Knuckles to have his own set, see Sonic also has a set, and think that Eggman really is telling the truth. It makes his deceit a lot more believable.

    And I know the Master Emerald can neutralize the Chaos Emeralds...but it only does that when asked, like in Sonic Adventure 2. Knuckles had to say "dude, stop that." Why would they they act the way they do around the Master Emerald in Sonic 3 & Knuckles unless...just maybe...the two halves had to reunite?

    Oh, and the Emeralds don't warp back after every game. Really, they only did in Sonic 1. They certainly didn't between Sonic Adventure 1 and 2.


    <!--quoteo(post=402153:date=Jan 28 2010, 09:45 PM:name=Neoblast)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Neoblast @ Jan 28 2010, 09:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=402153">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's pretty much what I think about them, it's not that there are 2 sets of emeralds, just one.
    Super Emeralds are just powered up emerlads by the master emerald.
    I think it's the most reasonable ( canon wise ) theory of all...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Except the Sonic 3 manual says Knuckles has a set... :(
     
  18. Aquaslash

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    Of the very few things that can be accepted from Sonic X, one is probably the idea that the Chaos Emeralds are like the Dragon Balls, and scatter after they are all used together.


    Easiest way to explain why they keep losing them :V
     
  19. Zephyr

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    My take:

    Ancient History: In their natural state the Chaos Emeralds were small, but Pachacamac figured out how to make them stronger, and he placed them at the Master Emerald shrine. Chaos takes them and uses them for vengeance, Tikal uses the Master Emerald to defeat Perfect Chaos, the Chaos Emeralds shrink and go to the Special Zone, and Tikal and Chaos get trapped in the Master Emerald. Remaining Echidnas build a newer, safer shrine in the crystalline caves under the volcano, make spots for the other emeralds, and sit watch over the Master Emerald.

    50 something years ago: Gerald goes to Angel Island, finds the mural predicting the doomsday zone (inspiration for Shadow's body shape), but gets attacked and subsequently chased off the Island by the few remaining, seemingly savage natives. Sometime afterward he manages to utilize his technology to enter the Special Zone and retrieve a Chaos Emerald, which he spends an extensive time researching. Long after Gerald's death, Robotnik somehow gets it in his possession, and dedicates his life to finding more.

    Sonic 1: Robotnik is combing the planet looking for some way to enter the Special Zone. During his search on South Island however, he has an unfortunate run in with some blue asshole. This blue asshole is Sonic, Sonic the Hedgehog. Sonic not only manages to find the other six emeralds and steal his, but also puts a complete halt to Robotniks operations on the island. Sonic used the seven Emeralds to heal the environment and they all go back to the special zone.

    Sonic 2: Eggman annoys Westside Island, Sonic and Tails come along, Sonic gets the Emeralds from the Special Zone, goes Super, boards the Death Egg, fucks shit up, Death Egg falls, Sonic escapes.

    Sonic 3 & Knuckles: Death Egg crashes on Angel Island, Knuckles investigates, Eggman lies and says that Sonic is a Chaos Emerald fueled lunatic, hellbent on nabbing Knuckles' baby right out from under his nose. Eggman describes Sonic to him Knuckles remembers. Knuckles instantly is reminded of the Doomsday mural, and thinks that seeing as this scientist dude looks a lot like that thing in the mural, he buys Eggbotnik's story and decides to work with him, and lets him build anything he wants, so long as the Master Emerald will be safer. Knux attacks Super Saiyan Sonic and knocks the Dragonballs out of him. Knuckles takes the emeralds and returns them to their home. Sonic takes em back from their home, arrives at the Hidden Palace and turns them Super again. Robotnik nabs the Master Emerald and uses it to restore the Death Egg, only to have Hyper Sonic destroy the Death Egg and take said green rock back. Danger is gone, and the Emeralds return to the Special Zone.

    Wash, Rinse, Repeat for every proceeding game.
     
  20. <!--quoteo(post=402167:date=Jan 28 2010, 10:17 PM:name=David The Lurker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (David The Lurker @ Jan 28 2010, 10:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=402167">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh, and the Emeralds don't warp back after every game. Really, they only did in Sonic 1. They certainly didn't between Sonic Adventure 1 and 2.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Hmm? They're in very different places between the two, especially with Tails getting rewarded one for stopping the missile. They're just plain not there at the end of SA1.
     
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