That new prototype footage of Sonic 1 going around...

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by MrMechanic, May 10, 2020.

  1. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

    staying alert on the beach Wiki Sysop
    5,732
    279
    63
    Northumberland, England
    quipu two metres apart
    Reset your password or make a new account - it'll be easier that way given thumbnails are currently dead (also I want to encourage as many people as possible to edit things).

    Case in point, I tried to guess which issue of EGM that was, and I chose #21.

    It's not 21. But 21 does have this:

    [​IMG]

    https://info.sonicretro.org/index.php?title=File:EGM_US_021.pdf&page=46

    Scary thing is, I would have seen this when I added the scan. I think it's the introduction area, minus the goal blocks on the left. Presumably if you went out that gap, you'd fall into the void.
     
  2. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

    staying alert on the beach Wiki Sysop
    5,732
    279
    63
    Northumberland, England
    quipu two metres apart
    Actually scratch that - I've just found a better version of that scan and it's going to confuse things.

    But still, get a working account because wiki accounts are lovely :)
     
  3. Master Emerald

    Master Emerald

    A green crystal Member
    Yes it is, it's almost the same area as the one featured on the tectoy box.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    Member
    785
    90
    28
    I was also under that impression, possibly because I had played the Sonic 1 Beta Remake hack, which similarly mapped it to the jump button. So either it was already known back in the day, or Mistergambit (the hack's creator) correctly guessed its use on his own.
     
  5. Loop

    Loop

    Pure of Heart. Dumb of Ass. Member
    It's the same, if not similar, bubble text as seen on the early Sonic CD builds, 510 and v0.51. According to MCTravisYT, it loads into the VRAM in 510, so we've had it for a long time...
    [​IMG]

    Here it is in action on v0.51:
    [​IMG]

    MCTravisYT theorises that the final frame (when it's a number) is mapped to line 2, which is red in Labyrinth in the released game, which makes it look like it has a red tint in the beta footage.

    [​IMG]
     
    • Informative Informative x 9
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  6. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

    staying alert on the beach Wiki Sysop
    5,732
    279
    63
    Northumberland, England
    quipu two metres apart
  7. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

    NotEqual Tech, Inc - VR & Game Dev Oldbie
    4,334
    76
    28
    I appreciate this, I'm gonna let someone else handle the ripping, but this will go a ways towards non-sonic stuff I do with my VCR. Thanks!
     
  8. Cooljerk

    Cooljerk

    NotEqual Tech, Inc - VR & Game Dev Oldbie
    4,334
    76
    28
    Anyone notice that Sonic is teetering in one of these screenshots despite not being on a ledge?
     
  9. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    Member
    785
    90
    28
    Actually he's next to the edge of that platform, it's just hard to see in that screen:
    [​IMG]
     
  10. D.A. Garden

    D.A. Garden

    & Knuckles Member
    Some people have said that the music is sped up in Act 3 due to a speed shoes monitor, and I think they're right, but not for the reasons they might think. When the footage for Act 3 starts, Sonic has a speed shoes monitor in effect, as he can run up the slope to the left, and then run back down/roll through the wall to the right with very little effort (not really possible without the extra speed). Then, an extra life is triggered for 50 rings, and from this point on, Sonic appears to have normal sped for the rest of the act. Similar to the final game, I expect the extra life sound effect interfered with the return to normal speed trigger for when the speed shoes ran out.

    EDIT: Also, just noticed that the art for Marble Zone loads over the trees during the fade to black at the end of Green Hill Zone Act 3. Marble Zone blocks are clearly visible, but it happens very quickly.
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
    • List
  11. Master Emerald

    Master Emerald

    A green crystal Member
    Here's the video in 720p

     
  12. MarkeyJester

    MarkeyJester

    ♡ ! Resident Jester
    2,042
    103
    43
    Japan
    After some thorough investigation I think there's a difference involving the "UP" and "DOWN" block mechanisms. Just a brief side note about the blocks in the final game (for those unfamiliar with their function), there are two speeds possible, 80 and 40 (40 is the starting stage speed), upon hitting an "UP" the speed is shifted left to increase it to 80, and then the block is changed to a "DOWN", if however the speed is already 80 then nothing happens and the block remains unchanged, the same occurs in reverse for "DOWN" blocks.

    I ran the special stage clockwise this time and attempted to replicate this frame:

    [​IMG]

    This frame appears to be impossible to achieve at the very start, something is always misaligned be it; the background, the maze rotation frame, Sonic himself, or the block cycling. However, after altering the "DOWN" block so it still works even if the speed is at its slowest 40, it slows the rotation down enough to get:

    [​IMG]

    This is frame perfect to the beta shot, everything is satisfied as far as can be seen.

    Interestingly, the speed doesn't need to be reduce to 20 via a shift to achieve the same thing, even a single subtraction of 1 is enough. Now assuming that's what's going on in the beta, notice how the "DOWN" block still says "DOWN", it does not change to "UP" either. I therefore suspect that the "UP" and "DOWN" mechanisms work differently in the beta, I would go as far to say the "DOWN" and "UP" work via addition/subtraction to increase/decrease the speed, and do not have a cap, furthermore, I would also say the timer (which is set to prevent the block from being touched again until Sonic leaves the wall and the timer lapses) is not programmed in either, meaning the "DOWN" block will continuously subtract an amount from the rotation speed for as long as you are touching it.

    Because there would be no cap, I would say the speed is subtracted until it heads into negative and the stage goes in reverse, the speed of the reversing stage appears to be -5C which not a very rounded number and cannot exist via the shifting method (further concluding my theory), the -5C has been calculated based on the number of frames it takes to change the rotation frame throughout the entire video sequence of the special stage:

    Code (Text):
    1. - 4 5 6 5 6 6
    2. 5 6 5 6 5 6 5 6 6
    3. 5 6 5 6 5 6 6
    4. 5 6 5 6 5 6 6
    5. 5 6 5 6 5 6 5 6 6
    6. 5 6 5 6 5 6 6
    7. 5 6 5 6 5 6 6
    8. 5 6 5 6 5 6 5 6 6
    9. 5 6 5 6 5 6 6
    10. 5 6 5 6 5 6 6
    11. 5 6 5 6 5 6 5 6 6
    12. 5 6 5 6 5 6 6
    13. 5 6 5 6 5 6 6
    14. 5 6 5 6 5 6 5 6 6
    15. 5 6 5 6 5 6 6
    16. 5 6 5 3 - - -
    Now of course, the video is 29fps so it'd be just over twice the frame counts above. Unfortunately because of the video rate it's proving difficult to find an exact frame count and calculate the exact rotation speed. I was hoping the guys attempting to rip the video would be able to obtain a 60fps version for better accuracy. Only then can we attempt to formulate the conditions to meet every criteria.

    Here is what I think is happening in the video before the sequence starts, the speed starts at +40 as expected:

    [​IMG]

    Sonic rolled across the "DOWN" button which gradually subtracted the rotation speed down until it reached -5C (FFA4), I suspect with D-pad right assistance as it seems something naturally a player would do.

    [​IMG]

    Despite the stage rotating in reverse, Sonic's momentum is enough to continue:

    [​IMG]

    Hit's the bumper whilst still rotating the stage anti-clockwise.

    [​IMG]

    Over the ring bottom right corner of the rings:

    [​IMG]

    Collecting the three rings (which are missing in the video), and then landing and moving left as the stage rotates (the "UP" block has no effect on increasing the rotation speed to positive so long as Sonic is touching the wall which has the goals):

    [​IMG]

    This still satisfied the screenshot first posted above. Now, if we could work out what the actual rotation speed is in the video (again, only a rough calculation of -5C, not absolute since we don't have a full 60fps footage to work with), we could work out what the subtraction rate of the "DOWN" block would be, along with the right D-pad buttons for left/right which may have been pressed, and may be able to satisfy the following:
    1. The screenshot match.
    2. The three rings missing.
    3. The rotation speed in reverse and matching the video.
    4. The block cycling is synced to the stages' rotation position in the same way as the video.
    5. The background scrolling is at the right spot.
    Provided these conditions are met, then the above theory should explain the nature of the stage in the video.
     
    • Informative Informative x 11
    • Like Like x 4
    • Useful Useful x 1
    • List
  13. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

    staying alert on the beach Wiki Sysop
    5,732
    279
    63
    Northumberland, England
    quipu two metres apart
    Must push this topic above "Sonic CD is great"...

    Hey at the 2:15 mark, Sonic hits two Chopper badniks in succession, but is only awarded 100 points for each. In the final, the score would double on the second hit.
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  14. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

    staying alert on the beach Wiki Sysop
    5,732
    279
    63
    Northumberland, England
    quipu two metres apart
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Thing not spotted in 30 years - it is "ACT. 1" in these prototypes, not "ACT 1".


    What makes this impressive is that they did the same thing when making Sonic 2:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    (p.s. if you still needed proof about the different background layout - this is it)
     
    • Informative Informative x 11
    • List
  15. This has been spotted before. In fact, it's already on TCRF. Didn't know it was almost in Sonic 2 though!
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  16. tokumaru

    tokumaru

    Member
    851
    12
    18
    Rio de Janeiro
    Platformer for the NES
    This didn't seem important at first, but trying to compare the exact same moment in both videos reveals that different fields were dropped when capturing/converting the video (the wrecking ball stays flat brown for several frames in one video while it stays checkered for several frames in the other), which suggests that the person who uploaded these videos has access to the original tape, and could potentially make a proper 60fps capture of it. Here's what happens when you try to capture the same frame from both videos:

    sonic-beta-youtube.gif
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  17. Master Emerald

    Master Emerald

    A green crystal Member
    He does and he's experimenting with it.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  18. tokumaru

    tokumaru

    Member
    851
    12
    18
    Rio de Janeiro
    Platformer for the NES
    Cool, I'm glad he's trying to do it properly. As long as he's not using a really cheap capture device that's unable to capture both fields, he can easily deinterlace the video using VirtualDub. If he can't do it, he could maybe send the raw interlaced video to someone who can.
     
  19. Master Emerald

    Master Emerald

    A green crystal Member
    Last edited: May 15, 2020
    • Informative Informative x 6
    • Like Like x 4
    • List
  20. tokumaru

    tokumaru

    Member
    851
    12
    18
    Rio de Janeiro
    Platformer for the NES
    Awesome! Looks pretty smooth now!