TGC's Sonic Retrospectives

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Josh, Dec 9, 2018.

  1. Josh

    Josh

    TGC Warrior Oldbie
    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9XM-VRNaw0[/youtube]

    Hope this is okay to post here - I made a topic for my classic series four years back, and I've come quite a ways since then, but now I'm finally getting back to Sonic!

    I always try to find a unique perspective on these topics, and a whole lot of the way I did that throughout these three episodes was to use the fact that I was a part of the online Sonic community at the time. So in SA2 for instance, I could recall what a love-it-or-hate-it game it was right from the beginning.

    Anyway, I'll keep this topic updated as the series releases over the next few weeks, and as usual I've got to give a huge thank you to Retro! This place really is an invaluable source of information and historical context.
     
  2. Speeps

    Speeps

    Previously Jmtshaw Member
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    There's some real shit on YouTube, but I liked this vid. It's a balanced analysis of the game's strengths and weaknesses.

    One thing is bugging me though - you bring up localization issues, but then also use examples still related to the localization when talking about story issues. Namely:
    • Shadow speaking over himself after deciding to save Rouge.
    • Knuckles saying Amy saw Eggman and Rouge (In Japanese he asks her "More importantly, is it true the bat-girl was with Eggman's gang?")
    • Shadow realizing who Rouge is (The Japanese version has him say "You're the Federal Government President's specialist agent, Rouge the Bat." and has Rouge reply with "Did you read up on me?", implying more that Shadow did some research rather than Rouge being famous for some reason.)
    They can still be brought up, just for different reasons to what the vid implies there. Rouge is completely non-existent in Hero Story other than to argue with Knuckles, so Amy seemingly brings up this info out of nowhere unless you've played Dark story. The other example the game still never shows Shadow becoming suspicious or doing that research on Rouge. It only barely touches upon a motivation for it with Eggman yelling at his computer before Cosmic Wall, which doesn't show Shadow until Eggman moves on from that point.

    SA2 has like one of the worst localization jobs in the series for a main title, alongside Shadow's game. Among other things, it has more funny screw ups than that Biolizard line - the point Amy makes to Shadow is that no matter how messed up and evil a person can be, they're basically good as long as they think what they're doing is right - and you should help them! Plus, Eggman implying to Knuckles he'd have loved to destroy the planet a long time ago if he got the chance, rather than turning off Gerald's destruction sequence (Caused by one word: "This" rather than "That").
     
  3. SuperSnoopy

    SuperSnoopy

    I like Sonic Advance Member
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    It's a pretty nice video so far :)/> (haven't got the time to finish it yet but I'll get to it eventually)

    Also:
    I'm interested in this. I don't want to derail the topic but could anybody TLDR me about this ? I always thought Shadow the Hedgehog was just poorly written.
     
  4. TheKazeblade

    TheKazeblade

    "Our Life is More than a Side-Effect" Member
    This was always my assumption. SA2 was really the last of the truly clunky localizations of the series, from Heroes on they improved significantly, but the actual writing just doesn't leave a lot of room to be much better than passable.

    This was a great video! Loved the in-depth look. Can't wait for Heroes!
     
  5. FollOw

    FollOw

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    I really liked your ending. I too was a teenager by the time this game first came out so I don't have the same nostalgia the younger generation had. While I loved it (first time playing was when it went to Gamecube) I do remember people having very strong feelings about the game either good or bad. I was in the camp that was defending the game, and while I love the Genesis titles more, the Adventure titles have a lot of fun in them as well.... I think the only difference between me and you was I played the Chao gardens to death...
     
  6. Yash

    Yash

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    My understanding of the “suddenly Rouge is in trouble after Security Hall” scene is that the boss fight held her up long enough there was no way she'd get out in time, even after beating it. In the cut scene right before the fight she says “I can't believe I came this far, just to fail!” and Lani Minella's delivery of her victory line (“Yeah, I'm pretty strong, alright”) has this weird melancholic feel to it. She “won” but at an extremely high price.
     
  7. Speeps

    Speeps

    Previously Jmtshaw Member
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    Rouge doesn't talk about failing in Japanese when she first sees the boss, she's just annoyed at messing up (over being caught).
    JP Rouge: "I had to mess up at the very end!"

    Flying Dog gets the stage (it is the "vault") locked down after it takes enough damage, it says so in the fight:
    JP Flying Dog: "Flying Dog reporting to command HQ. An intruder has been sighted in Security Hall. I am preparing to attack. (Understood.)"
    JP Flying Dog at 1HP: "Flying Dog to HQ! I am taking heavy damage! Requesting to seal Security Hall ASAP!!"

    The English translation sounds like they've read it as "security hole", so it's just shouting nonsense:
    EN Flying Dog: "This is Flying Dog to headquarters. Intruder found entering security hole. Preparing to attack. (Copy that.)"
    EN Flying Dog at 1HP: "This is Flying Dog to headquarters. We're taking heavy damage. Close the security hole!"
     
  8. Josh

    Josh

    TGC Warrior Oldbie
    I didn't know that stuff about the translation, but that's really illuminating, and makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the insight! I found that video where someone's retranslated the Japanese version of SA2, and I'll probably cite it for my Shadow the Hedgehog video. Again: Thank you!

    Here's my least-favorite game in the entire series, and I feel like I've been waiting for 15 years to put the reason into words. Hope you all enjoy!

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57LQk--Py2U[/youtube]
     
  9. JaxTH

    JaxTH

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    Jack shit.
    So what game are you stopping at? I tend not to watch things until a series is over.
     
  10. Josh

    Josh

    TGC Warrior Oldbie
    The next episode is the last one of this season, and that's Sonic '06.

    I've gotten scripts written for each of the three Advance games, so they'll come out next.
     
  11. UpCDownCLeftCRightC

    UpCDownCLeftCRightC

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    Heroes is also my least favorite game of the series, minus '06.
    I played it for xbox when it first came out, early teens. Biggest crime of the game is the fact that it is incredibly dull. As dull as the worst parts of SA2 but extended over an entire game. I remember back then feeling like this was the first big miss in the sonic series. SA2 I had mixed feelings about as well, but I at least found parts of the game to be pretty enjoyable. Heroes I didnt enjoy playing at all.
     
  12. Speeps

    Speeps

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    I was very excited for Heroes only to stop playing when it wouldn't let me into the Last story lmao. I never got why that game made beating it with all four teams mandatory, especially with the whole thing about "beating the game twice then being put into a tutorial stage where you get to listen to Omochao force you into dialogue every few seconds".

    EDIT: Oh, looking back I hate how Knuckles was handled too. Heroes basically butchered his character into "Sonic Buddy #2". IMO, Amy fits the role of a power type for Sonic more than a speed type for her own team.

    Also, about Shadow's game: Windii found out the last ending has one of the biggest translation errors in the series: The GUN Commander and the President are supposed to be talking about Shadow saving everyone, but in English they start thanking Gerald instead. (JP) (EN)
    Plus, they don't remove the Japanese cheering - they just play a different one over it.
     
  13. Blue Blood

    Blue Blood

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    I love the way that the Heroes retrospective was structured. Specifically, you focus entirely on the ups and downs of Team Sonic before you even mention the other teams existing as clones that only compound those issues four-fold. It mimics the structure of the game in a very effective manner.
     
  14. Overlord

    Overlord

    ...did we just switch realities? Moderator
    Watched this with a friend I was visiting in Yorkshire - you're pretty much bang on with Heroes, only you had more patience with it than I did as I never got as far as Metal Overlord (fun fact: I actually got my nick on the CulT board edited to "(Metal) Overlord" for a brief period after Heroes came out!) - the game's not aged well and it was poor even at the time, though yes worse was to come.
     
  15. MainMemory

    MainMemory

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    Sonic Heroes is a game that I like in concept, and I remember having fun with it, but I never feel compelled to go back and replay it. Great video as always, it's just too bad I didn't have any quotes about 06 for you to use.
     
  16. Yash

    Yash

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    I've never really hated Heroes, but I've never been compelled to actually finish it either, on any of the campaigns.

    Doing an SA3 that focused on Sonic, Tails and Knuckles specifically would have been so much better. Or maybe not, Sonic Team was already going downhill.
     
  17. Covarr

    Covarr

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    Trapped in my own thoughts.
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    Sonic Heroes was a really weird game to me, because I genuinely enjoyed it at first. Sure, it had its low points, like Rail Canyon and Hang Castle, but for the most part I seemed to find a lot of fun in the game even despite its habit of constantly ruining flow for stupid puzzles and bland combat. I beat all of Team Sonic, having a pretty good time except when I wasn't.

    But then I played Team Dark. Things that had previously just been nuisances to overcome become far more time-consuming without adding any real challenge or fun to the game. It was during my Team Dark run that I eventually reached the point where I was spending more time between the good parts than on the good parts, and I got fed up and quit. Now? I can't stand the game. There was a line, Team Dark's piss poor balancing hopped over that line, and I was never really able to recover from that.

    But you know what? I truly think that if the game exclusively had Team Sonic, but in Team Rose's shorter, less tedious levels, this game could be one that I come back to every few years, alongside SA1 and SA2. There is a good game buried in there somewhere, but it's buried beneath so much banal tedium that it's really hard to find.
     
  18. Josh

    Josh

    TGC Warrior Oldbie
    I agree, and it's easy to say that Team Sonic alone, with some smart cuts to the padding of stages, would've made for a much more enjoyable game. The problem then would be that the game would be over in a matter of hours. The classics handled that with difficulty spikes, and more than that, replayability, in an era when the former was more common and the latter was much more valued. But by 2004, a full-priced game with so little variety that you could complete in maaaaybe five hours would've gotten awful reviews, and _that's_ a big reason the game is so padded.

    It's something the series struggles with to this day - if replayability isn't something most players are interested in doing, how do we make a Sonic game that'll actually make them feel like they're getting their money's worth? They've tried a BUNCH of ridiculous approaches, and analyzing that will be a bit of a throughline whenever I do my next Sonic season.
     
  19. Covarr

    Covarr

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    Trapped in my own thoughts.
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    Since it sounds like you'll probably cover this, I won't say too much so as not to color your future videos, but I've gotta say, I really loved how Generations handled it, using difficult-to-reach collectibles (red rings) and challenges as padding, as if to say the base game may not be too long, but there's a ton of extra stuff to do in here.
     
  20. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    Generations approach reminds me of a more fleshed out version of SA2 missions. It's a shame they didnt take that approach again I thought it worked well