don't click here

Takashi Iizuka's levels

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by sonicteamUSA, Jan 1, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. sonicteamUSA

    sonicteamUSA

    Member
    187
    0
    0
    usa
    What better way to start out the new year than to look back at what veteran designer, Takashi Iizuka did for the sonic series. Specifically, I'd like to focus on level designs for this topic. I've been researching and studying Takashi's level designs for many years. Observing which levels he created was a lot of fun. Seeing the similarities and all. So lets get started with sonic adventure:

    Sonic Adventure:
    Emerald Coast - takashi was the one that envisioned the sonic adventure format. He directed it as well. So why shouldn't he be the one to design the first action stage to show off 3d sonic's potential. It keeps the action linear as well.
    Last Part of Windy Valley - Have you noticed in this game, there are different sections for each level. The last part shows off a distinctive iizuka feel for me. Long slopes. Also, 3 in a row speed pad postitions are found here. Something that would later on appear in many of takashi's other levels. Long strips of speedway trails are also an iizuka staple.
    Last Part of Ice Cap - It's obvious that the first & second parts of this stage where your inside the ice cave, was designed by someone else. As I've seen no similarities in these sections in future iizuka games. The snowboard part however, I do. The orange ramps reminiscent of city escape. And long slopes.
    First Part of Twinkle Circuit - Ramps, jumps, slopes, loops. It's takashi alright.
    NiGHTS part of Casinopolis - takashi is a huge fan of NiGHTS, correct? He directed it as well. There's a section where you warp to a pinball section where you can fly around one of NiGHTS levels, called spring valley I believe. Only takashi would reference a cameo like this.
    Nightime part of Speed Highway - this level seems to be extremely popular. Well, since the only thing sonic can do in this game is run, run, run, where could you go wrong in designing this level. The arrows on the highway pavement come up in other future iizuka levels. Those arrows are a staple in iizuka's design philosophy. Also, this level resembles radical highway, though I'll get to that later. As well as one part of casino park in heroes, but I'll get to that later as well.
    Lost World - There's a section here where you flow down a waterfall tunnel and down. This is reminiscent of sonic's section of cannons core in SA2. Also some design similarity with glyphic canyon.

    (keep in mind, that this game also had 5 other level designers: Shiroh Maekawa who doesn't even do level designs anymore. In fact I think this is the only game he did level designs. He went on to do the script and story of sonic adventure 2 and sonic heroes. That's right. The same guy who came up with the brilliant story telling and script of SA2 also came up with this line "Lets get ready to show this creep the REAL superpower of teamwork!". Shocked? I was to when I found that out.

    Yojiro Ogawa was another level designer. Though, he doesn't do level designs anymore. Most would recognize this name as the guy who came up with secret rings.
    Shun Nakamura was another level designer. Most would recognize this name as the guy who directed Sonic 06. He also did level designs for that game as well.
    The two other designers also don't do level designs anymore. In fact one of em' quite sega.

    Sonic Adventure 2:
    (SA2 had only two level designers. takashi of course. And a new first timer, eitaro.)
    City Escape - Ah, yes, the first memorable level. Lots of slopes, and some NiGHTS billboards. Again, this shows iizuka's love for this character. Also here's a quote from an SA2 interview with takashi: "most of our research [in level design] was predominately done in San Francisco". And it definitely shows. The part where you get chased by a truck is reminiscent of the rock chasing you in Lost World.
    Radical Highway - What do you get when you put the golden gate bridge in sonic's world?....this. Are you starting to see the similarities with speed highway. also, the arrows on the pavement. And a giant NiGHTS building cameo. Boy, he's obsessed w/ this character.
    Mission Street - tails version of radical highway. There's even slopes here !
    Those Route 101 levels - basically a daytime version of radical highway. Except with no platforming.
    Green Forest/White Jungle - yep. I'll get to this later. Also, 3 in a row speed pad placements everywhere.
    Metal Harbor - As soon as you start the stage, you come to that 3 in a row speed pad placement that comes up in many of takashi's designs. Also, after you pass the 1st loop, you come to a part where you light dash and immediately hit a rail. The same thing can be found in green forest.
    Weapon's Bed - eggman version of metal harbor. Lots of action here.
    Sky Rail - Most likely a test level. takashi built this level to test out his rail geometry skillz. And he made it for two players as well. Good thinking there. I'll get to more similarities with this level with other games later. Such as the spinning wheels sticking out of the mountains that later appear in Rail Canyon.
    Pumpkin Hill - If takashi made sky rail, he also made this. Uses large amount of sections from sky rail. Including the church. It's very imaginative, and probably the best haunted environment in any sonic game, period. You gotta love those sneering pumpking mt's.
    Pyramid Cave - As soon as you start the stage, you hit a 3 in a row speed pad placement (again, I told you it would appear in iizuka's designs). The long circular runway filled with gizmos and even some clever light dash placements is the work of an experienced individual. Also, those rocking ships that rock back in forth is something that'll appear in another future iizuka level. No area's are reused, which further enhances the levels appeal. Also, many snake statues that would later appeared in Lost World are found here.
    Final Rush - Only someone w/ years of experience can accomplish something along the lines of this level. The amazing rail geometry isn't the only thing that impresses. The fact that this level was built w/ an exact idea of how the physics would effect everything is simply amazing. Not only the grinding, but when you jump off a rail or do a trick, there's always something in the air that you can interact with. This level obviously went through many weeks of testing.
    Final Chase - those spinning drums have bad collision detection, lol. But still, I guess that's the fault of the programming and not the design. It's an altered version of final rush.
    Crazy Gadget - some gravity concepts were used in one of takashi's lost world stage back in SA1. Here, he takes it to a whole new level. Very clever use of it too. Again, this level shows off years of experience that links to iizuka. This concept of gravity would go on to appear in later takashi levels. And that last part of the level, I have to say, as annoying as that was the first time we played it. It's still very well thought out. Also, the red rails from City Escape appear here.
    Eternal Engine - tails version of crazy gadget w/ out the gravity. This level is actually a favorite of many.
    Lost Colony - a darker version of eternal engine. Takashi used the lighting here pretty cleverly. Sections of eternal engine are also present here.

    Cannons Core was a collaboration between takashi and eitaro. One section I'm 100% sure takashi did, was sonic's. The part where your in the brown river is an obvious reference to lost world.

    the rest of the levels were done by eitaro. Poor eitaro gets stuck designing the other non-sonical levels. But the fact that takashi is more experienced, it makes sense for takashi to handle all the sonic/shadow levels. this game was more of a way to get eitaro to get a grip of designing.

    Sonic Heroes:
    (sonic heroes had two level designers, takashi of course, and.....eitaro......so it's the same two guys from SA2)
    Seaside Hill - From the mind that brought you Emerald Coast..... Obviously, iizuka would get to design the first level to give off the feel of how this game would be played out in his mind. And I have to say, this is the best beach level produced. And generally the one of the most well designed levels in any sonic game out there. Yeah I know the physics in this game were pathetic, but the actual design and geometry is obviously the result of months tweeking the level to make it the most appealing and to give off a good vibe. And yeah, 3 in a row speed pad placements FTW! Also 3 way loop de loops make their debut !! Too bad they only appear in this game. No sections are re-used either, which shows off the talent in taking care of this stage. Also, there's a section that kind of resembles a section in green forest where after you come to the first group of enemies and pass em', you go down a slope and come up a sort of half loop and hit a bumper. The same thing can be found in green forest where you hit a couple speed pads and come up to the top and hit a bumper in to opposite direction.
    Ocean Palace - As soon as you pass the first loop you come to a 2 way loop de loop. This exact 2 way loop de loop can be found in radical highway. No sections are re-used also. the waterfalls coming out on the left and right at the beginning of the stage would also appear in Death Ruins. The scene where you get chased by rocks is also reminiscent of the truck and rock chase scenes seen in Iiuzka's previous levels.
    Grand Metropolis - the orange blimp you found in radical highway can be found here, except this one doesn't say "Got Ring?". Also, The section where you come to the part where you're grinding. There's a blue building to the left at the end that has a city escape stylish influence. In other words, the San Francisco style houses.
    Casino Park/BINGO Highway - here's a quote from takashi: "The Sonic Adventure series was much more story-driven, so I was limited to the types of level designs that would make sense within the scope of the game. But with Heroes, I had much more freedom to explore more action-oriented levels, the type that used to be Sonic-only stages. I really wanted to put a 3D pinball stage into the Adventure series somewhere, but due to the limitations of the storyline I just couldn't do it." There ya go. Also, remember that section in speed highway where you come to the glass sticking outside the building and it breaks then you run down the building full speed? Well same thing can be found here. The glass sticking out the side of the buildings. Except when you break the floor of the glass you come to a pinball table instead of running down the side of a huge skyscraper.
    Rail Canyon - I guess you can say Final Rush but in the grand canyon. The rail geometry is again fresh and complex. Except there's more of a emphasis on just grinding instead of "grinding then jumping to do some home attacks then landing back on a new rail". Also the childish physics of this game doesn't make this level feel as good as final rush :) Still, very impressive stuff here.
    Frog Forest - Okay, here not only will you find the 3 way loop de loops you found in seaside hill. You'll also find long, big slopes reminiscent of radical highways slopes. Also, there is a section where when you come to the first 3 corkscrews, at the thrid corkscrew, there a section at the tip top of the loop where it's cut off. The same thing can be found in green forest. Where you come to the top of a loop, and the tip of it is cut off. I like that reference. The only design flaw here are the bottomless pits.
    Lost Jungle - I was having trouble deciding who did this level. But in the end I decided it was iizuka. No sections are re-used. And also, there's a part near the middle of the level where you come down a slope and you run through a puddle of water. The same thing can be found in green forest in the beginning of the level where you go in the cave, and if you look carefully, you fun through a puddle of water. The scene where you get chased by a giant alligator is again reminiscent of the chase scenes seen in previous iizuka levels.
    Hang Castle - Remember those rocking ships in pyramid cave, well here there are rocking blades with faces on them. Also, the concept of gravity makes it's debut in sonic heroes. Though not as clever as crazy gadget.

    The rest of the levels were by eitaro. Power Plant obviously re-uses way too many sections over and over. And it relies too much on beating all the enemies to open up paths. And using tails too much. Mystic Mansion has no slopes or loops at all and reuses sections a lot. Iizuka can't design a stage w/out including at least some loops. Egg Fleet re-uses a lot of tedious, unintuitive sections as well. Also, the last part in Final Fortress where you come to the giant eggman head and blow it up, the same thing can be found in the last part of bullet station. I have to say bullet station is the best eitaro level though. It re-uses some sections, but it's pretty rail geometry makes up for it.

    Now for the game where fans lost respect for iizuka. Keep in mind Shadow the Hedgehog is probably the busiest game iizuka was involved in. Not only was he director and a level designer, he was also lead game design, CG movie supervisor and scenario writer (cause the previous writer, Shiroh Maekawa, left the studio after heroes), and takashi was the only one experienced enough to write a script. So in return takshi's level design quality suffered. Also, two new level designers came to the studio. Asahiko who was a story planner in sonic battle GBA. And Hirono, she was a game designer for billy hathcher. So that equals 4 level designers, including eitaro.
    shadow the hedgehog
    (keep in mind takashi didn't design the first level westopolis. Westopolis features cramped object placement and no 3 in a row speed pad placements. )
    Glyphic Canyon/Sky Troops - As soon as you start glyphic canyon, you come to a light dash and hit a 3 in a row speed pad placement set up the exact same way they were set up in Heroes. There are many loops and slopes. And the part where you come to a stairway on the left and one on the right is reminiscent of the beginning of Lost World in SA1, where you come to the exact same design choice. The beginning of sky troops where you come to a double corkscrew is the exact same one found at the end of radical highway. Unfortunately, iizuka's busy schedule in this game shows, as these two levels re-use sections over and over. Luckily the sections that are re-used aren't tedious.
    Lethal Highway - what's that to the right? Oh, a NiGHTS cameo billboard. This level is slope after slope after slope. It's fast, but I would have liked to see more loops. The only design flaw are the red alien blobs found in the middle of the highway that mess up your speed, lol. Also, the ramps found in City Escape return.........except they aren't orange, and the programmers were too lazy to add tricks.
    Circus Park - Not only do you come across a 3 speed pad setup on the 1st slope, you also have those same drums that are the so called spinning drums found in sonic 3. Which makes me believe that takashi was the one who designed that zone in sonic 3. Also, remember those Arcs above the pathways in Green Forest? Well, they reappear on those blue pathways in this stage.
    Cryptic Castle - There's sections that resemble circus park. The lamp posts as well. The part where you go down the first slope, if you go to the top of the tower and run around the circular roof, you'll notice this section was also used in circus park. Also, there are some similarities w/ pumpking hill. Those tomb stones and sad looking trees return here. Also, giant Pumpkin faces are seen through ou the level. There's another chase scene at the end of this stage as seen in previous iizuka levels.
    Death Ruins - lots of 3 speed pad setups found here. And the long slopes have the same geometry setup from frog forest. Also, the parts where you grind all the way down the level on those red alien rails, is reminiscent of when you grind all the way down those vines in frog forest.
    The Ark - Man was it good to see this level brought back to life. The sad thing is you don't really get to grind. But you fly on that black volt. I guess takashi didn't want to make it exactly like final rush. He wanted to try the concept of flying........coughnightscough.
    Space Gadget - did you think the name was a coincidence? lol, the concept of gravity is popular with takashi. It's very clever.
    Cosmic Fall - It's another ark level. And it's clever, but patience is a virtue. You have to wait for the platforms to come to you. The name of this stage is making me think Iizuka designed Cosmic Wall from SA2...
    Black Comet/Final Haunt/The Last Way - The beginning of Final Haunt has a 3 speed pad setup. There's many slopes. But some of the sections in this level repeat a lot. And these stages are long. The concept and style is cool though. But I would have like these stages to be more intuitive. It actually looks like an alien version of the Ark.

    Those Digital Circuit Levels I'm still not sure as to who designed them. And I have to say the Doom and Lost Impact levels were either designed by Asahiko or Hirono. Cause those two levels show inexperience. The Prision Island, Iron Jungle, Lava Shelter, and Air Fleet levels I'm pretty sure were designed by Eitaro.

    NiGHTS Journey of Dreams - I don't own a wii, so I had to do my research watching YouTube vids. There are only 7 levels here. And also, eitaro left the studio to work on secret rings, so this game was left with 3 level designers.
    Delight City - this level is obviously reminiscent of Casino Park from sonic Heroes. Not only are the neon light buildings similar, but the part where you roll down the slides is a huge reference to bingo highway. In fact the way you roll down those slides is the exact same way you do in sonic heroes. I'm glad takashi didn't make EVERYTHING neon like in heroes. Jeez, cause that gave my eyes seizures. There are at least fields of green grass to help calm your eyes. It's actually much better designed than casino park & bingo highway too.
    Memory Forest - Not only are the tree geometry found here re-used from Lost Jungle, the whole level looks exactly like Green Forest.

    And that's it. After that, sega studio usa was shut down. In japan, for sonic unleashed, takashi was under " Level Design Special Thanks ". His special thanks shows in Empire City, as you can see some of the Radical Highway flavor there. From the red toll booths, to the bridge concept, to the loop where you go up then run down the side of the building which is reminiscent of the last loop in city escape.

    So what do you guys think? Of his level designs? What are your favorites from him? What are your least favorites from him? And what do you think of his skillz? If anybody owns SA1 or NiGHTS JoD, maybe you can make better comparisons.
     
  2. Dude

    Dude

    Tech Member
    3,138
    0
    16
    Southbridge, MA
    Random VR/AR trash
    Honestly, I've wanted to meet this man for a very, very long time - and I hope he sees what I did to ice cap in sonic RDX, because I honestly want to work with sonic team on a sonic game.

    Basically, all the hit levels. EC, speed highway, radical highway, Seaside hill, Final rush, city escape.

    I've drawn lots of inspiration from those and I'll definitely continue to do so.

    However, I would like to note a lack of specific sources on the information in this topic - though they are (very well) educated guesses, we can't be 100% sure the levels are properly credited here [/rant]

    Also, ignoring what I just said - its a shame he was occasionally limited by hardware. Loading up station square's level proves something that is already glaringly obvious - the level was built all as one piece but split later for performace reasons. Also, listening to a few of the audio files cues me into the fact that station square was originally meant to be MUCH bigger, with sound bytes in there indicating the presence of a train turntable, presumably to take you to more adventure fields. And old screenshots of the game show more people present, going about their daily business than in the final.
     
  3. muteKi

    muteKi

    Fuck it Member
    7,851
    131
    43
    Meh, I honestly think Iizuka's levels -- assuming this list is right, which I believe it is -- are the weakest in Sonic Adventure, and honestly he should try to work on a Trackmania clone rather than a Sonic game because that's what these levels all scream to me. Speed Highway night is probably the worst level in Sonic Adventure, especially with all the speed boosts. (I can spam the spin dash on my own, thank you very much, I don't need you getting rid of my ability to move left and right when I speed up.)

    There are some cool levels in this list though.
     
  4. Phos

    Phos

    Going for the high score on whatever that little b Member
    3,318
    0
    0
    Emerald Coast was all right. The other stuff you list was pretty crappy.

    Even so, Iizuka's levels were much more complex and engaging than those in Unleashed, which alternate between holding X for a while and raw memorization.

    Now I'm wondering what involvement he had with Sonic 3.
     
  5. sonicteamUSA

    sonicteamUSA

    Member
    187
    0
    0
    usa
    Hmm...a bit harsh there. I agree Speed highway is extremely easy though. But, there's not much sonic can do in that game.

    You're not alone. But the fact that sega of japan shut down his studio, I don't think I'll ever get the pleasure to meet him. Honestly, ever since I played SA2battle, I had a set goal of working with his team as an animator. I originally wanted to be a level designer like him, but there's no chance in hell I can come up with levels of his caliber. I did notice in iizuka's later games starting w/ Heroes, that the physics and animations could have used a lot of work. I felt like I could make a difference in there. I even convinced my family last summer to have our vacation in san francisco. Unfortunately, I didn't know takashi at that time was gone :(
    Still it was really cool. So many similarities from SA2 & ShtH in the city and parks. The best part was when I was standing face to face w/ the building where all those games happened. [650 townsend] I even got kicked out of the building by the security guard. I tried taking pictures but they didn't allow me. Then I tried going upstairs, and that's when I got kicked out.

    lol, yeah, I know. But I tried my best :)



    Emphasize. What levels do you think are bad?

    Well Iizuka is very experienced, but you should cut some slack for the day time unleashed level designers. There were only 3 of em'. And I have to commend them for designing mile upon miles of levels.

    He helped Yasuhara with level designs. The reference of the spinning drum in circus park from circus level in sonic 3 makes me wonder if he designed that level. Also, I'm starting to think he did ice cap in sonic 3. The rest I have no idea, cause it was in 2d.
     
  6. Phos

    Phos

    Going for the high score on whatever that little b Member
    3,318
    0
    0
    You think Iizuka designed the Carnival Night Zone barrels? If that's the case, That's hillarious.

    And aside from Emerald Coast, I think ALL the levels you listed are bad (Keep in mind, if it's a primary Sonic game, I compare it to Sonic 3)
     
  7. OKei

    OKei

    OKeijiDragon Member
    1,506
    60
    28
    If its means poor level design, then its gotta be him. I'm more interested on what Iizuka did on Sonic 3.
     
  8. sonicteamUSA

    sonicteamUSA

    Member
    187
    0
    0
    usa
    lol, yeah.

    ALL of em'?!.....wow. You're a tough cookie. You said all, so that includes Radical Highway. I guess it's okay for you to not like any of iizuka's levels, but when you diss Radical Highway.....you're pretty much crossing the line.
    lol.


    ....*cries*...I though carnival night was pretty well designed. It's just the visuals that are disorientating. Though you can blame that on the zone artists.
     
  9. OKei

    OKei

    OKeijiDragon Member
    1,506
    60
    28
    Well, don't get me wrong, I love Carnival Night Zone (PLUS the music). Its just that I still have those unpleasant memories I have with that goddamn barrel. Only recently, I've learned how to overcome that part of the zone, and I've enjoyed even more it ever since.
     
  10. Rolken

    Rolken

    Tech Member
    You're taking quite a leap of faith over the yawning chasm of logic, you know. And this is only the most egregious example.

    Given that not a whole lot is known about the particular design philosophies and tendencies of Sonic Team 3D level designers, this doesn't seem like the best topic to toss speculations around on.

    Sure, there's plenty of NiGHTS and other Sonic Team references in the 3D Sonic games, but that's because, you know, they were made by Sonic Team. And Iizuka wasn't the only Sonic Team member on Sonic Team. And Sonic game elements popping up in subsequent Sonic games is evidence of nothing more than the bleeding obvious.
     
  11. Afti

    Afti

    ORIGINAL MACHINE Member
    3,521
    0
    0
    Iizuka can do great... when he understands that you can slow down.

    Lost World, Crazy Gadget, and, assuming he really did work on it, Skyscraper Scamper are brilliant.

    The ZOOM ZOOM FAAAST thing he has going with the rest of his levels makes them dull.
     
  12. P.P.A.

    P.P.A.

    SONIC 2 SUCKS, SONIC CD FOREVER Member
    644
    0
    0
    Germany
    Sonic MD (Currently: Art for Zone 3)
    Which are also some of the worst parts of the game. So basically... all Iizuka can do is make straight, limited roller-coasters?

    aside.

    Please elaborate. Sonic 06's level design (along with its music) was that enjoyable it actually made me somewhat forgive the horrible... everything else.


    So yet again he proved he's incapable of designing anything that is not straight lines or involves at least a bit of platforming. At least I have to admit some of these levels, like CE, MH or PC are pretty fun. I want to kill him for CG and FC though.
    Wait, that one is actually one of my favourite levels in the game. Partly because of the music, but still.
    Radical Highway had platforming?!
    Which I always found the least fun and charming of Knuckles' stages. I'm walking through valleys, cryin' pumpkins in the alley!
    You know, there's usually no gravity in space. That much for physics!

    Stopped reading. Partly because otherwise this post would be too long, too many HORRIBLE memories would flood back and lastly because I have been avoiding Heroes for a while now so I don't remember the details of the levels. Just the overall pain form playing them.

    just die already
    Sky Troops was the only bearable level in Shadow, everything else wanted me to cut off my arms so I'd never have to play this filth again.


    I thank you for making this thread, now I know that I hated Iizuka a lot more than I actually knew it.
     
  13. Vaiyt

    Vaiyt

    Oglio p'ru çeu Member
    So basically Iizuka is responsible for most of the 3D games' design phylosophy of "Get pushed in lines by bumpers and dashpads, make Sonic look fast and cool while giving the player as little control as possible". Now I know who I am to blame.
     
  14. P.P.A.

    P.P.A.

    SONIC 2 SUCKS, SONIC CD FOREVER Member
    644
    0
    0
    Germany
    Sonic MD (Currently: Art for Zone 3)
    Which reflects my thoughts as well.
    To the guillotine with him!
     
  15. sonicteamUSA

    sonicteamUSA

    Member
    187
    0
    0
    usa
    Takashi was the only level designer in sonic adventure that worked on NiGHTS into Dreams. That should be enough proof, shouldn't it? And all of the NiGHTS cameos have appeared in only iizuka's games.
    Yeah, I know you can play as him in Sonic riders, but...that's a racer, so it makes sense to have many characters.

    No wonder. You should go back and observe the design. I didn't appreciate it when I was a kid, but now, I realize how much effort and thought was put into them.
    Also, don't you mean the overall pain from playing them are from the physics and not the design?

    Ya know, after reading that, it seems to me like you want to find faults w/ Iizuka's levels.
    No gravity in space.........is that your best argument? Oh sure, forget the imaginative rail geometry everywhere. Forget the cool atmosphere.
    Who knows, maybe the Ark had a protection barrier of some sort near it's surface to prevent some gravity problems........I don't know...........It's a sonic game !! Is that even important?!

    ........but still..........what?
    Oh yeah, I know, b/c it was made by iizuka. That's why you said "but still".

    All I know is that Shun was a level designer in SA1 & Sonic 06. He was also under "Level Design Special Thanks" for Unleashed.

    Okay, why don't you explain to me what kind of level design you expect from a 3d sonic game. You said iizuka's levels in the sonic adventure games were too linear and involved no platforming, even though I strongly disagree w/ you. And he even improved his design in Sonic Heroes by balancing out platforming. Why don't you give examples of 3d sonic levels you've played that you think are best.
     
  16. P.P.A.

    P.P.A.

    SONIC 2 SUCKS, SONIC CD FOREVER Member
    644
    0
    0
    Germany
    Sonic MD (Currently: Art for Zone 3)
    Both equally. While the mechanics were already horrible the ridiculously long and repetitive levels didn't really help either.

    I am not trying to find faults with Iizuka's levels because they're slo bloody obvious they stab your eyes. The physics thing was merely mocking to your wording in that post and context. And imaginative rail geometry is all nice and cool, if not for that fact that you can't really do anything while grinding. Other than holding B perhaps. Which is what's the problem with all of Iizuka's crimes, they're pretty to watch but lack interaction, challenge or platforming (though that'd fall under interaction I guess). He'd be great if he made roller-coasters for amusement parks, but as a level designer for a platforming game, he's terrible.


    Sonic R.

    And some of Sonic 06's stages were a step into the right direction as well, like the first parts of Flame Core, and Kingdom Valley, Sonic's Dusty Desert, the second part of Sonic's Tropical Jungle or certain areas of Wave Ocean and Crisis City.
    Which can all be summarised as allowing the player to choose their own route and speed, creating an illusion of a complete world to play in, and having tons of alternate paths to the goal as well as platforming segments. Instead of being, you know, floating bits of straight, uneventful, speedy pathway hovering freely in the sky.
     
  17. Tweaker

    Tweaker

    Banned
    12,387
    2
    0
    sonicteamUSA, I have seen you both here and at Sonic Stadium and you have proven to be a clear Iizuka fanboy. If people decide to express their opinions in responses to your choices, then I don't want to see a goddamn argument pop up from it—people are free to hold their opinions about the levels because they're based entirely on experience and preference. Factors are being interpreted differently by different people here; some of them appeal to you, some of them don't. It's absolutely pointless to try and argue that, though, because you're certainly not changing anybody's minds.

    Anyway, I sort of agree in that I see a trend between Iizuka's levels and straight lines. Mind you, his original levels weren't that bad; they seemed to have become progressively worse as time went on, though, and I think that as he had a more prominent influence on the Sonic series' level design that those flaws gradually began to show more and more. I think this is a big part of why people think Iizuka is ruining the franchise—his ideas for the series, quite frankly, blow massive chunks.

    Then again, since you enjoy the next-gen games better than the classic ones (having grown up with them), I really can't expect you to understand any of this. Bear in mind that a majority of this board did, though you're definitely going to get some resistance if you keep pushing this "Iizuka is kawaii desu-ne~ ^____^" sort of attitude here. Just a heads up.
     
  18. sonicteamUSA

    sonicteamUSA

    Member
    187
    0
    0
    usa
    The levels iizuka did for Heroes didn't re-use sections like eitaro did. And plus there were only 14 levels. If each level was only 2 minutes long, it would severely cut down playtime.

    Looks like someone need to re-play Final Rush again. I seriously think you have forgotten how many multiple paths that level offers. In fact as soon as you start the level after you rocket yourself to the rail, it's immediately clear to the eye that there are rails and platforms everywhere for the player to interact with. You grind you jump off the tip of the rail homeattack an enemy land back on a rail, continue on a platform then find an alternate path for you to continue. It's the perfect bliss of speed, platforming, and multiple paths I've ever seen in Iizuka's work.
    I just find it stange that you never noticed that.

    Many of Sonic 06's levels involved home attacking many enemies to unlock a door with only a select few of loop or slopes for that matter. Actually, now that I think of it, most of the terrain in sonic 06 was pretty flat. The first section of Kingdom Valley got the platforming and speed sensation right, even though there barely any slopes and no loops. But a majority of the designs rely on enemy encounters. Flame Core is notable for that. I agree with you that there were multiple paths, but Sonic 06 had at least 6 LD's. So it's obvious those level designs would be bigger.

    Also, keep in mind that Iizuka had many other duties while working on these games. The level designers of Sonic 06, Riders, and Unleashed only had to work on level designs.

    Also, SA2 & Heroes had only 2 designers. [Most games have at least 6 LD's] Eitaro didn't even do a majority. So not only did iizuka handle a majority of the levels, he directed, wrote, and visualized the game design documents. He later on had to take on the additional role of producer for NiGHTS JoD. So obviously, he's swamped, and yet, he was able to come up with level designs that have become popular among the fanbase. A lot of people still praise the sonic/shadow levels in SA2.
    I did notice a drop in quality in his design for ShtH, but that of course was his busiest title. It was a result of not having the reliable team members to handle tasks for him. And it shows in some of the programming.
     
  19. muteKi

    muteKi

    Fuck it Member
    7,851
    131
    43
    I mean, I liked Sonic Heroes though its level design was far less complex than Sonic Adventure's, but one thing I noticed in both is dramatic camera cuts under certain scenarios.

    The one time that I was playing Sonic Adventure and it felt like a huge departure from the original games was in the middle of Speed Highway right at the start of the building descent, where the camera cuts like 5 times before going into reasonable control.

    Since you can actually STILL MOVE SONIC the lack of clarity of what direction one should move the controls to get Sonic to go in a certain direction right at the start (there are a couple power-ups right at the start of the stage) makes it irritating. I think you have to hold the direction opposite what it would be once the camera cuts stop.

    There were more of these in a few Sonic Heroes levels -- Bullet Station one of the more notable ones. While fun to watch, these cuts make it impossible to tell what direction to move the characters in, and because you can still move them, disruption of the analog stick will likely lead to an unrecoverable error: death. This is especially true in the damn rail sections, where landing on one is the Sonic equivalent of batting in baseball -- hitting a round object with a very narrow, straight line.
     
  20. P.P.A.

    P.P.A.

    SONIC 2 SUCKS, SONIC CD FOREVER Member
    644
    0
    0
    Germany
    Sonic MD (Currently: Art for Zone 3)
    Sonic 1 had 19 Acts which would take a few minutes the first time around, and with growing experience you could clear each within a minute or less. Yet no matter how much time you spent with it, it was enjoyable, diverse and fun. So if each of the 14 levels would only be 2 minutes long the game wouldn't be too short at all. Furthermore are Sonic Heroes' (and ShtH's too) stages not only too long, they remain that way no matter how often you play them. There aren't any shortcuts you can find after playing the levels a few times or other ways to become a lot faster. And even if they were, they'd have long been nullified by the team feature forcing you to switch to shit every few metres greatly breaking the flow.

    Oh yes, sorry that I forgot pressing direction+jump once in a while to switch to a different linear rail. And occasionally run down a hilly platform... onto the next rail!

    That's no valid excuse. Yasuhara did Sonic R's 5 rich, detailed and open levels all by himself, same with Sonic 1. Yoshi's Island with its rich and full 54 levels had only 4 level designers! Plus working on multiple things at once at the expense of quality (even though I don't think he'd be able to make decent level designs even if he had nothing else to do) is a stupid thing to do anyway. Especially seeing as a lot of SA2, Heroes and ShtH stages seem to take parts of others and paste them in a different order sometimes. Layout-wise, as the visual design is often fully identical.

    You say that as if every Sonic game/level needed to have slopes and loops.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.