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Tails Tube

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Blue Blood, Mar 24, 2022.

  1. Snub-n0zeMunkey

    Snub-n0zeMunkey

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    I get this and I agree to an extent I just find it funny to say "Team Dark don't exist" because that's weirdly vague, like... in what specific way do they not exist? lol
     
  2. The KKM

    The KKM

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    IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog comic books

    The Chaotix are an established Detective Agency in-universe.

    Team Sonic, Team Dark, or Team Rose are marketing terms used out of universe to refer to when sets of characters come together.

    With very rare exceptions that tend to happen more due to marketing terminology getting mixed in the writing, no one in universe is going "yep, Team Dark, the official Team who always and intentionally work together". That's the way they don't exist. They're not the Avengers, they're not the X-Men, they're not the Justice League. They're three characters who work well together and thus through disparate ways often get put together in stories, and out of universe, that collection is called Team Dark. It's more comparable to how fans call the trio of Superman-Batman-Wonder Woman the "Trinity"- it's a term and concept that exists here irl, not in-universe.

    EDIT: Of course, watch this Tails Tube thing go and retcon all this anyway and throw it all out right after I post explaining this stuff.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2022
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  3. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

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    I dunno, I think Shadow coming out of his shell and learning to trust people has to be portrayed somehow, it's a good direction for his character to take after SA2. Though, maybe that's because he's a completely insufferable chode on his own. I think most people over the age of fifteen actually want the guy to soften up.

    The problem is not that these characters being friends is a bad dynamic, it's that they don't have a dynamic. The comics do a well enough job of portraying them as friends without them being fundamentally different people, but the games don't actually seem to care how they feel about one another. Omega was one of the best parts of Heroes because he explicitly didn't give a shit about Shadow or Rouge except as a means of fucking up Eggman, and his role in the series after that has been rather nebulous. I'm pretty sure he's part of Shadow's team in 06 (though I guess since Shadow is surprised to see Rouge in that game they're not even a team then and it was just a coincidence?), or at least part of GUN since the commander or whoever definitely talks about him in a way one would another operative, but it's not clear why he cares about Mephiles. He takes the fall for Shadow big-time later on, so I guess that's a demonstration of him being Shadow's friend, but not much. Even still, Omega is more separated from Rouge and Shadow to start with, but Rouge and Shadow don't have a dynamic on their own, either. In SA2 it's a very tense alliance between three people who don't like each other, and that makes for some good scenes. But in Heroes and Shadow, Rouge is mostly just going "hey Shadow do you remember anything" and Shadow often talking like she's not even there. 06 has the most of them working together as a team without Shadow in loopy-mode, but it's still nothing special, and most importantly, Rouge was a character who did work well on her own in SA2, sneaking in the shadows (hehe) to undermine Eggman's plan. So saddling her to Shadow ironically makes her weaker.

    Eugh. The point I guess I'm making is, you could easily portray them well as individuals or as a unit, but they're choosing to do neither, while explicitly saying they're doing the former, but what they're actually trying and failing at is more like the latter.
     
  4. Starduster

    Starduster

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    Honestly though, Team Dark as an official in-universe team makes the most sense for one aside from Team Chaotix. Shadow and Rouge have both already been affiliated with G.U.N. and given that they're marketed as a set anyway, you can easily write in that Omega operates with G.U.N. because they provide him with repairs, ammunition and intel so that he can more effectively hunt down and eviscerate Eggman's army. And that doesn't mean they need to buddy-buddy friends like "Team Sonic" and "Team Rose" (speech marks to denote I'm talking about the out-of-universe concept here), but that doesn't mean that they *can't* be friends either. There are gradations. Yeah, Shadows a grump who doesn't open up to those around him, but that'd be precisely *why* he gets along with Rouge and Omega, being aloof and focused on his mission respectively. They don't pry or try to force him to open up like Sonic might - they understand each other well and, in Shadow's case, respect his space.
     
  5. Ayu Tsukimiya

    Ayu Tsukimiya

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    It's really weird that Shadow *has* to be an edgelord or a Vegeta clone with no soft side whatsoever. Like, really? The guy who's entire motivation in life is keeping a promise to a nice, altruistic little girl to protect people's chances at finding happiness has no friends and/or doesn't see the value in having them? I don't see what's so "everyone has to be all buddy buddy" about that.


    Thank you. Rouge and Omega really suck as they are right now. Making them Shadow's occasional co-workers has rendered them into just satellite characters.
     
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  6. MainMemory

    MainMemory

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    Shadow and Rouge have a pretty good relationship in Sonic Battle, but I guess nobody cares about that.
     
  7. Forte

    Forte

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    To me, Shadow befriending Rouge and Omega was a sign of his character development.
    I don't get the "buddy buddy playing cards friends" comments, certainly it wasn't like that for "Team Dark". They started as strangers with common goals, along the way, they started to respect each other (You can argue that Rouge had respect for Shadow back in SA2, him saving her life and all, but it doesn't help that she willingly withhold information from him).
    This peaked in Sonic06 I think.

    Anyways, If people really like this new direction... good for them. I like my characters with a little bit more dimensions.
    Also, it's funny we are comparing Shadow to Vegeta, because Vegeta post cell saga, and even the post DBZ one, grew out of his complexes.
     
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  8. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    I agree with The KKM and Pengi that was never an official Team Dark in-universe, and they don't need to act all buddy-buddy to express their bond, nor would it be in-character for them.

    Shadow, Rouge and Omega care for each other in the games, they're just not an official team or people who outright call themselves friends. Sonic Battle showed that Shadow and Rouge cared for and appreciated each other. Sonic 06 had her spell out that she would be by his side if the world turned on him, and Omega was clearly disturbed by Mephiles' claim that he'd be ordered to hunt Shadow down in the future.

    Shadow does have a soft side and Sega isn't denying that. In Battle he quickly grew to care for Emerl after realizing how similar he was to him. The game also made it clear that Shadow's "I don't care about anyone else" attitude is just a front he puts up, and Sonic is able to see through it. The recent wallpaper cover stories kept this dynamic:
    It also makes sense that Shadow would act cold and distant toward everyone else given his backstory. It's a common trope in fiction for characters who lost a loved one to become withdrawn and refrain from getting close to others out of fear of losing them too.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2022
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  9. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

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    If you think about it, what those three have is some sort of adult friendship. They don't need to be bff or anything like that, but they're comrades or siblings-in-arms, we could say. They don't need to act soft, and they don't need to go always together, but they cover each other's backs and communicate easily without words when they meet.

    If Rouge and Omega are now satellite characters, I don't think that's very different from what Amy and Knuckles were in Lost World, for example. They show them because they're supposed to be around there somewhere, but not too much because we're on "shitty friends not allowed" mode.

    Now, if only Silver, Blaze and Marine came together too to be "Team Paradox" or whatever... Mighty, Ray and Sticks together would be welcome too ("Team Gaiden"?).
     
  10. Starduster

    Starduster

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    Honestly I'd rather Blaze and Silver not be tied too closely to one another in such away because it'd muddy the waters on continuity.
     
  11. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    Classic Eggman art Member
    Yeah, continuity is currently in a perfect state, we should stay away from retconnings and time-space shenanigans, shouldn't we?
     
  12. Starduster

    Starduster

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    Come on now, just because it's not ideal right now isn't an excuse to make it *worse*.
     
  13. Snub-n0zeMunkey

    Snub-n0zeMunkey

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    I never really cared for the Silver and Blaze pairing, I feel like they kinda bastardized Blaze's character in '06 tbh.

    She went from being independent and strong-willed to a boring sidekick character because Silver needed a partner I guess. She feels so shoehorned in.

    I like Blaze and Cream because it's a nice parallel to what Sonic and Tails have.
     
  14. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

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    Of course, if they do a bad characterization, how would you like it? But I think they work as individual characters and can work well if they team up. Every Sonic character is or can be good, but it's the final product what makes it real or botches it.
     
  15. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    I think 06 flattened Blaze's character by ignoring her flaws and casting her in the role of responsible big sister to Silver. But I recall Colors DS handling their interaction and her character better.
     
  16. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

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    Apologies for not considering Battle, I just haven't so much as glanced at it in fifteen years and (hopefully) understandably forgot
     
  17. Snub-n0zeMunkey

    Snub-n0zeMunkey

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    I'm not against them re-introducing the dynamic again in the future, if they handle it better.

    I'm not a big Silver guy so I don't really know what his deal is lol. He's still from the future right? Wasn't there a game on PSP that came up with a new origin story for him? What story are they going with nowadays
     
  18. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

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    Rivals had him reintroduced to Sonic since nobody else remembers the events of 06, but it basically doesn't even matter.

    A lot of people claim they're "making homage to 06" like SEGA is intentionally being transgressive or provocative, but I think the reason they keep putting him alongside Blaze is because 06 was probably supposed to introduce both of them and take place before Rush in the timeline, but something got muddled during development hell. They were supposed to be the next Shadow and Rouge, it just so happened that 06 was both designed like crap and completely failed to understand that you actually need a soul to make people care about your characters.
     
  19. The reason fans latched on so hard to Team Dark is because they're a perfect example of a found family; three individuals who came from very different backgrounds, ultimately coming together and forming their own unit. Unless you're an asshole with no feelings, its kind of hard not to be just a little charmed by that dynamic somewhat. You see the gradual change too, because they go from purely a team of convenience in Heroes to genuinely caring about each other by 06. No its not executed perfectly and requires some reading in-between the lines, but the fact that the group have such a large fan following should probably clue you in that many people picked up on this trend about them.

    So for Sega to come out and say "Nope, none of it matters" is basically a slap in the face. No, I don't care about Sega's corporate bullshit at all, they can say whatever the hell they want, but they don't really have a right to dictate how people feel. And the uproar about their ruling about Team Dark is never going to be considered ok, period.

    No, this isn't saying that they have to buddy buddy like Sonic and his friends, they can all still do their own thing from time to time. But at very least, just acknowledge the history between these characters. They don't have to be one-note caricatures who only exist in service to Sonic, but Sega seem adamant in turning them into that and it's frustrating as hell for someone who's been following this series for a long time.
     
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  20. Pengi

    Pengi

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    Nothing's really changed. We've seen in the Sonic Forces prequel comics and Team Sonic Racing that Shadow, Rouge and Omega still team-up when it suits them.

    They're just not together all the time and don't actually call themselves Team Dark except when participating together in a racing contest where a team name is required.

    Any character development we saw in Sonic 2006 was moot by the end of the game.

    The only real change we've seen is with Shadow becoming more of a one-note character. But that's specific to him. The status of "Team Dark" is the same as it's ever been, in that it isn't a concept that exists in-story. Same with Team Sonic and Team Rose, none of them run around calling themselves that and none of those characters are joined at the hip.
     
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