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Streets of Rage 2: Red Crimson Edition

Discussion in 'General Sega Discussion' started by Glisp, Jan 31, 2011.

  1. Meat Miracle

    Meat Miracle

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    Yeah, it's just that SOR2 and SOR3 are so different. SOR2 had a minimalist no-nonsense feature set, combined with a pinnacle of level design, hitbox setup, near perfect balance, and awesome enemy AI.

    Compared to that, SOR3 has terrible balance and design. They added all these new moves for the playable characters, but they completely failed to adjust everything else in the game for the new moves. You just dash and dropkick nonstop for the entire game. You can't even use the specials effectively, because that stupid bar meter charges too slow.

    It's like... the two just don't mix at all.


    That gives me an idea though, make Shiva's dash limited. He never dashed full-screen as a boss, only a limited distance - if you move too far, he stops. That could possibly help balance, since you can't dash and dropkick everyone as fast as they get up. Though, I'm not sure if that's effective at all, since in SOR2 the jump kicks don't have absolute priority, and you can't change direction mid-air.
     
  2. Glisp

    Glisp

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    None at the moment I'm afraid.
    Hmmm... Well, next time I talk to RC I'll talk a little about Shiva. He may save working on already added characters for later since he's working on adding Barbon and R.Bear.
     
  3. Meat Miracle

    Meat Miracle

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    IMO Shiva is the only single boss with a complete enough moveset (and perhaps Victy), all other characters only have 4-5-6 moves total, so they wouldn't be nowhere near as fun when playable. Outside the novelty of using them, and of course the SCIENCE behind cracking the game code.
     
  4. Glisp

    Glisp

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    None at the moment I'm afraid.
    That's why we have a custom spriter who has done some work on SORR on our team. He did the custom Blaze running sprites. They actually turned out better than expected. For me at least. Barbon's the real challenge here. He has very few animations so he's gonna need a lot of work.
    Characters like Abadede, Zamza, and R. Bear actually have a near complete moveset. They're only missing like one or two moves, like Shiva.
     
  5. SiddtheKidd

    SiddtheKidd

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    I agree with meat miracle about removing the SoR3 features, except running imo. it worked fine for skate I don't think there's much harm in shiva having a run as long as he has his disadvantages to balance it out. will there be diagonal running as well? I think if that's added in there you should disable grabbing while running, I mean imagine max being able to run let alone diagonally and able to grab while doing so. unless the enemies gain some sort of run-stop attack.

    Anyway I look forward to this hack as I said back over at BA. Do you know anything about how R.Bear plays?
     
  6. Glisp

    Glisp

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    None at the moment I'm afraid.
    You can run diagonally actually.

    R. Bear plays a little weird still. He's got a lot of work that needs to be done. (much less than Barbon though.)

    These are subject to change but:
    -R. Bear can do his grab attack (without sound effects)
    -He can use the back elbow jab though it functions as an uppercut infinite like Shiva's B+C infinite.
    -For his offensive special, he uses his arm hook attack (doesn't slide forward yet and the range is crazy, even touching enemies further away than his arm can even reach.)
    -His defensive special is his anti-air uppercut.
    -for his forward, forward, B special he delivers a straight.
    -His combo is near identical to his boss version's
    -His throws cause graphical glitches currently that may hinder gameplay and fuck up graphics.
    -His hold + B move can cause the game to freeze and unfreeze repeatedly if it hits. (uses his jump attack animation his boss version uses.) Eventually, it freezes the game for good
    -His jump attacks are different punches. (RC's still working on this here.) Also makes a static noise when used for some reason. Still usable though thankfully without any ill effects.

    As for Barbon, he can't do much of anything right now except punch and use a lame jump attack that doesn't cause damage and is composed of random animations.
     
  7. Glisp

    Glisp

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    None at the moment I'm afraid.
    Hey guys, apologies for the double post. I know I said I wasn't gonna upload a youtube video of the latest build but I got bored lol.
    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/F94BTksIQdg&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/F94BTksIQdg&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->
     
  8. Glisp

    Glisp

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    None at the moment I'm afraid.
    New update guys. Not much, but some of the SORR sprite authors have granted permission to use some of their custom sprites from SORR for the hack.
    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/b2syK0NvC1Y&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/b2syK0NvC1Y&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->
    Oh and apparently Shiva could block in the previous build but I didn't find out until after the video in my previous post was made, so I put it in this one. You can read this video's description for more info if need be.

    Also, the graphical glitches with Max are being worked on so don't bother bringing them up.
     
  9. dsrb

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    Shiva was powerful enough already without being able to block…but either way, blocking probably shouldn't work on attacks from behind.

    [edit]
    OK, just saw this on the SoRR forum:
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's still to be determined if Shiva will keep this or not or if any of the other playable bosses (Barbon and Zamza) will be able to block too.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->I suppose it's maybe worth including since the NPC versions can do it, if you're aiming for accuracy. Perhaps it could be optional? Or it could have weaknesses to certain moves or a limit on how long you can use it for (as it seems to for the NPCs).
    [/edit]

    Anyway, it'll be good to play as the bosses when this is released. Not sure how much I like the addition of stuff from BKIII (as MM said, it disturbs the balance), but the SoR2 stuff looks good. Shame there isn't a slightly more active (or open) hacking scene for this series.
     
  10. Meat Miracle

    Meat Miracle

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    Blocking should push him back a little. Maybe even add block stun? I'm not sure how that would work fairly in Streets of Rage.
     
  11. steveswede

    steveswede

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    Some kind of block gauge would bring balance and should be a feature for all characters. But in all honesty, blocking from all sides isn't a game breaker. If you think about it you can still be grabbed and your defences dropped. If some clever coding was done, the AI could be programmed for an enemy to break your defences by grabbing you from behind and then another coming in and kick the shit out of you.
     
  12. Jayextee

    Jayextee

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    I'd make blocking sap the special gauge, one notch per hit. OUCH.
     
  13. SMTP

    SMTP

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    Have blocking still hurt you, just much less than normal...
     
  14. steveswede

    steveswede

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    <!--quoteo(post=578787:date=Apr 16 2011, 06:41 PM:name=SMTP)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SMTP @ Apr 16 2011, 06:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=578787">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have blocking still hurt you, just much less than normal...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    It makes for a better game to have good AI and battle strategies of enemies than to nerf moves.
     
  15. DeanSatan

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    really nice stuff :thumbsup:
     
  16. Glisp

    Glisp

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    None at the moment I'm afraid.
    I have to agree with all of you and your comments regarding the block for Shiva. Not sure why he doesn't move backwards, might have to do with balance. I'd have to ask RC. The block is activated by pressing and holding A+B+C simultaneously so it's completely optional if you want to use it. The other issue with the block is that if you go out of it at the wrong time, you're vulnerable to getting pummeled.

    Though if you hold down B after letting go of the other two buttons, you can do an axe kick to escape getting hit after leaving the block or do a defensive special by letting go of the buttons and pressing A directly after letting go. But it's pretty pointless to just sit there and block since you can't really so that's why it's still determined if it will be left in or not.

    Yeah, I did make a few suggestions to RC regarding the BKIII Special Meter though. Like creating an option in the options menu to switch between it and the timer if you so choose, just like SORR. Also talked a little about an option to add both simultaneously. (though, thinking about it, it might potentially affect the game speed a little due to sprite limit but I'm not 100% sure. If it does, it may not be that bad hopefully.)

    Oh and thank you Dean. <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>Apparently, former SOA employee, Michael Latham also likes it as he liked the link to it on Facebook. lol.</span>

    Anyway, probably a good time to mention the Music hacking guide Red Crimson told me to make using the offsets and hex values he handed me. (he told me he's not very good at making guides.) Here: <a href="http://streetsofrage.freeforums.org/red-crimson-s-streets-of-rage-2-hack-t34-10.html" target="_blank">http://streetsofrage.freeforums.org/red-cr...ack-t34-10.html</a>

    Not much but it could help people research importing music and stuff if they need to. (don't make any guarantees though.) The offsets listed aren't all of them. We're still missing a few level offsets. I've been meaning to look some more but I've been busy with other things. We do have all the hex values listed though for each track.
     
  17. Meat Miracle

    Meat Miracle

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    <!--quoteo(post=578741:date=Apr 16 2011, 07:25 AM:name=Jayextee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jayextee @ Apr 16 2011, 07:25 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=578741">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'd make blocking sap the special gauge, one notch per hit. OUCH.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    ... That might work. Brainstorming some mechanics, if we use X button for blocking:

    - block button will put you in block state for: /half the time it takes to charge up 1 bar on the spec meter/.
    - you can keep holding the block button to remain in block state, as long as the spec meter allows.
    - using block button will subtract 1 bar from the spec meter, but it will NOT affect the charge lag / charge time of the meter. It will continue to charge regardless how many times you use blocking. So, for example, if there are 6 bars total charging at 1 bar/sec, and block time is half a sec, then you can use blocking 9 times from a fully charged meter. Or, keep holding block for 4.5 seconds. Note that I'm just using random numbers here for illustration, ingame bar charge time may not be 1 seconds.
    - during block state, you can still be grabbed.
    - during block state, you can do everything but movement (like when you normally press X).
    - during block state, when hit, you lose another bar on the spec meter!
    - during block state, when hit, you are pushed backwards, regardless of the direction the hit came from. (so blocking backwards will move you closer to the enemy)
    - this "pushed back" phase is not canceled if the "block state timer" goes down. Basically, you are in block state for x time, and if you get hit during that, you move into a "pushed back" state, which lasts....
    - this "pushed back" state should last 2/3 the time it takes to charge 1 bar.
    - while being pushed back from a blocked hit, you have no hitboxes. This is to prevent stuff like flying kicks hitting you as you are pushed back. (I think cpu blocking works like this, but I don't remember exactly)
    - while being pushed back from a blocked hit, as you have no hitboxes, you can't be grabbed either.
    - while being pushed back from a blocked hit, you can cancel to blitz OR supers (A and f.+A). Canceling to Super works as normal (uses up all bars, does damage if not all bars are full), but canceling to Blitz will use 3 bars from the spec meter, and will not work if you have less bars!

    - there is no lag after the block state (nor after the "pushed back" state), you can move immediately after it expired.
    - after the block state or "pushed back" state ended, you get a few frames of invincibility (1 or 2 or 3? which would be the best?). This is so you have time to do something (like blocking again) if you get knocked into another hit.

    This way, blocking could work as a sort of timed parry? It could add another dimension to the fight, because you couldn't just keep blocking indefinitely, but you could use it for baiting, preventing accidental damage, and sweet sweet counter moves. And make the X button based blitz shortcuts look more visually pleasing ("punch, punch, block, cancel to blitz" <-- will look better than "punch, punch, -frozen in place after pressing X-, blitz"), and have a cost too (so you can't use your most powerful moves free of charge). Oh, and it can be implemented for all characters.

    In Streets of Rage 2 Mania mode it may just work as a clever counter move, to give you a no-health-loss way out from being surrounded. You'll have the options of
    a.) blocking (1 and a half bar total), and so repositioning yourself, possibly into grabbing the guy behind you (as being pushed back from blocking will position you in grab range of the enemy who was behind you)
    b.) countering with blitz (4 and a half bars total), knocking down enemies on one side, and then resume fighting, but not being able to immediately do a blitz counter again.
    c.) countering with blitz (4 and a half bars total), knocking down enemies on one side, the blocking against normally (1 and a half bar total) to prevent a guy sneaking up from behind to hurt you, and then throw. Basically, point b.) followed by point a.). This will clear up enemies front and behind, but will leave you drained.
    d.) countering with special move (all bars), however this will take a little life too, and won't be much different from breaking out of being surrounded with a normal standing special (assuming you already started getting hit from both sides).

    I'm not entirely convinced that it's not overpowered, though. Maybe change it so it only does a fraction of the original damage, based on the Stamina stats of a character, the one you see at character select? One star - damage cut half, two stars for taking one third of the original damage, and 3 stars for taking no damage? But, that would make Shiva and Max more overpowered, wouldn't it?

    edit:
    <!--quoteo(post=578875:date=Apr 16 2011, 04:23 PM:name=Glisp)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Glisp @ Apr 16 2011, 04:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=578875">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Though if you hold down B after letting go of the other two buttons, you can do an axe kick to escape getting hit after leaving the block<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    good idea, countering to the combo ender by pressing Y - for one additional bar. So:
    e.) countering with Y (2 and a half bars total), this is a knockdown move so pretty useful, but has not invincibility frames unlike Blitz moves. So it has more limited use, but it costs less bars too.
     
  18. Glisp

    Glisp

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    None at the moment I'm afraid.
    Well, technically Meat Miracle, Red Crimson didn't plan the upgraded blitz move thing as far as I know. The controller setup is also still 3 button. Though he did have plans in the past to make some characters use the X,Y, and Z buttons do something, such as Zamza's flying kick (which still has yet to be implemented as far as I know, the only move of Zamza's not implemented yet. He wants a special way of activating it and is not sure what to do.)

    Also, probably should have mentioned that it's the typical "Hold down B button and let go" move you do normally.

    Also on subject of blocking animations: Zamza and Barbon do use their blocking animations in the hack currently, but not for blocking. They use them for picking up items. Zamza works well using his blocking animation here. Barbon however, looks out of place when he picks up items with his blocking animation.. lol.

    In other news, last time I talked to Red Crimson, he was working on R. Bear's new throwing animation (which is custom and you can see it in the video but it's not working properly yet. In the private beta I have, the music stops playing until you pause then unpause the game and it doesn't cause damage. He's working on this though.)
     
  19. dsrb

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    A+B+C is not an ideal way to activate blocking in my opinion, but any alternative methods I could devise would involve a 6-button controller, so idunnolol.
     
  20. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    ...How about just holding the Attack button to block? Just sayin'.