Spoiler Thread - SONIC X SHADOW GENERATIONS (SPOILERS!... Obviously.)

This is kind of what I was getting at; Sega does this shit all of the time. The 2010 games are made the way they were because the fandom was crying how bad the 2000s games were and overly melodramatic and for more Classic Sonic, so guess what? We got less characters, simpler, and meme laden stories and more Classic Sonic.

So now, the fandom has been crying about THAT, so now Sega are once again, trying to change things to appease the vocal group of fans who want more continuity, drama, etc etc


Do you guys see the problem now? Its not about "Muh melodrama" or "muh memes" its that Sega are all too willing to bend their knees to whoever is complaining the loudest at any given time, as opposed to just telling people to shut up and focused on making an actual good game. I can bet you money when people start complaining about how melodramatic the games are, or too many characters, we're going go right back to the meme, simpler story era in the 2030s and the cycle is just never going to end.

 

I just saw the "saving Amy" bit and lmaoooooo. I'll give you that; it's definitely not good.

Sonic's reaction doesn't fit what Amy's saying now, either. You would think they'd want to change it to fit better, but I'm sure their interaction is closer to the original (if not verbatim) in the JP script. Similar situation to what we see in Frontiers, where the crush remains in JP but in the English dub has been completely sanded out.

Not something I blame Ian for (feels almost strictly on marketing imo), but lmao. That's rough.

 

It's funny, because I think Sega is getting better at reacting to things like that. For example, we have both games like Frontiers and Shadow Generations and also games like Superstars and Rumble. They acknowledge Sonic can be cool and dark but also fun and light.

What happened in the 2010s is a reaction based heavily around the social climate of the time. They legit couldn't make games like Shadow Generations without getting negative backlash regardless of its quality. I'd be called cringe and bad writing and probably even sell poorly.

Sega and Sonic has survived, and miraculously, gotten back on their feet, because they dohave SOME pulse on what the people want, even if they're not always good at executing it.

People blame Colors for the shift in direction but Colors wasn't made to be "the first good 3D Sonic game", Sega didn't choose that (though it's genuinely cringe that they leaned into it) (also Unleashed did it first).

 

They put in the effort to reanimate the lip flaps seemingly, and the effort to revoice the dialogue, but apparently just couldn't alter the new script to fit the animation it had and didn't bother to check the context with said animations, or couldn't alter the actual scene animations to match. It's so jarring since how either of them act doesn't really line up anymore.

 

It reminds me of older English dubs. Actors having to change their performance to fit mouthflaps and the game being edited to make up for the change in timing. I'm specifically thinking about the original Yakuza dub. It's funny, though, cause Like a Dragon did so much work to fix this that the game genuinely has two different scripts and even animations depending on the dub.

It's obvious where the money went for SXSG, and it's why I thought there wouldn't be a rewrite. But they did it, and it had the issues I'd expected as a result.

 

Like I siad, they should have just reanimated the cutscenes lmao


Its always one step forward and two steps back with this series lmao.

 

I was actually pretty happy with the writing aspect pre colors and didn't really mind colors or gens that much either. But I figured that was just a temporary stint to take a breather for a little while. Had I have known it would have gotten this far off track I probably would have protested more back then lol.

All I really wanted were the games to be good, I liked everything else from Maekawa and such.

I think the only real solution is to stop being so absolute with how they manage things and let various writers, artists, designers, etc, have a run from time to time instead of sticking with one that upsets a portion of the fan-base for so long they end up becoming an uproar of protest.

I know people like x and y person working for the series, and that's totally cool, but maybe after a game or two, try mixing things up with some other people from time to time?

Perhaps this is a terrible idea, but other game series seem to do well with that strategy. Give people something they don't know they want yet and such.

 

I'll always defend Colors and Generations on their tone specifically because, yeah, they were made as a reaction, but they weren't supposed to be "What Sonic is Now" and that's only something Sega took to heart when Lost World and Boom flopped.

I like the new direction they're going for because Sega does seem more relaxed about Sonic. Still have mandates and strict ideas but we got Frontiers, MoSTH, Superstars, Dream Team, Rumble, and Shadow Gens in merely two years, that's a healthy set of different games with different teams and they don't feel like contradictions or walk-backs.

And I don't think Sega hires Ian Flynn because the fans like him, I think they genuinely like the dude and what he puts out.

He's a desirable mix of being able to do what they want while also expressing himself in a distinct way.

I just hope if and when they do go with a different writer for a new game, people won't react as if they're sacking him. But they probably will.

 

It mostly just comes down to Sega/Sonic Team being really terrible at actually making video games even if their ideas aren't bad. And if the games are mediocre or subpar, then you're going to have a hard time selling the audience on it unless you just really fuck with the concept or idea of it.

The reason a lot of Sonic fans put up with these games as they are is because they're bigger fans of the characters and the world they live in than the games themselves. It's why games like Frontiers can be accepted so easily as a return to form in spite of the myriad of problems the game had, because Fronters is the first game in a long time to actually acknowledge the history of these characters in a semi-meaningful way instead of just sweeping it under the rug because a bunch of people online really fucking hated the games from 20 years ago and never wanted to be reminded of them ever again.

Or Superstars being an extremely mid 2D platfomer, but people fuck with the aesthetic of it anyway.

This isn't really going to change until Sega hire people who actually know how to make video games that are fun to play; because I'm sure a lot of people could tolerate a melodramatic or meme laden Sonic story if the gameplay was actually on par.


Sonic Generations is itself an example because even if people complained about what little story there was, the game was good enough that it really didn't matter to anyone except the hardcore story fanatics.

 

Sega/Sonic absolutely knows how to make video games that are fun to play, that's an absolutely silly notion otherwise.

I'd agree if you say, like, Sega the corporation doesn't care about making fun games, but they do know how to make them!

Yes, people liked that Frontiers embraced old habits but they did also find it fun and just want Sega to follow up on it, which Shadow Generations seems to be exactly that, if the impressions are to go by (they're glowing).

Even when the games aren't good, it's often not because they just don't know how to make games, its shit like crunch, rushed development, and bad management. Which is technically incompetence but I don't think in the way you present it.

Iin my experience the opposite is true. More people think Superstars plays better than it looks. In fact, I think the aesthetic hurt the game more than any of its gameplay flaws. People think it looks "cheap", less impressive than Mania, and not a $60 game.

And frankly, I don't agree with aesthetic, character, tone, etc. being considered separate from what makes a game "fun", otherwise people would love the NSMB games. Adventure 2's tone is part of the fun, it's tone is why it has segments where Sonic skateboards down San Francisco. If it chose "fun" ove aesthetic like that, it would ironically not have those moments.

People did in fact tolerate melodramatic or meme laden Sonic games--they're called Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Colors lol. They're considered some of the best Sonic games even.

 

I'm going purely on how these games are looked at outside of the fandom. Of course Sonic fans are going to like Sonic games and put up with their problems.

But once you leave the fandom bubble, or if you're not a specific fan of the aesthetic.

Sonic Adventure 2 is good to a specific group of people who like it or "when the franchise became bad" and the same is true for Colors, depending on which side of the fandom circle you're on.

Sonic games are generally looked at as average at best or subpar at worst compared to their contemporaries.

That's why I said Sega are better off just catering to fans since their game output isn't really up to snuff. But like I said, it depends on if you like that specific aesthetic or not.


People who don't like Classic Sonic (or at least, the Neo Classic that's existed since 2011) aren't going to like Superstars and people who don't like supporting characters like Shadow or the melodramatic stories they have aren't going to like Frontiers or Shadow Generations.



I will say that I wish people understood what they liked and just not even bother with it if they aren't going to like it.

 

Oh no wonder the Amy scene felt off to me in more than just the unchanged animations and context. I forgot entirely that Sonic didn't speak, nor did he speak in basically any friend-saving cutscenes besides the immediate aftermath of Tails' rescue. So not only are they recontextualizing dialogue weirdly, but Sonic's now speaking in scenes he never did.

 

What is the Amy scene? I haven't seen it.

Just a transcript is fine if you can't post it.

 

Check @Azookara post.


Screw the dialogue changes. I'm particularly mad that there isn't a Sonic boss fight. Why would you even tease that if you weren't going to follow through

 

OK, as someone who cares a lot about preserving videogame history I understand how upsetting it is to lose the original version, but for the original game to have "one of the better game stories" there would have to be a story in the first place. Generations was just barebones on this front.

This was SEGA's decision. Blaming it on Flynn is absurd, had he refused SEGA would have given the job of rewriting it to someone else instead.

I'm not looking forward to the usual Flynn haters on twitter using this to fuel their keyboard crusade.

 

For those that don't have Dailymotion working for whatever reason or if this clip disappears

Now imagine that inserted directly on top of the old cutscene animations and the only thing new are the lip flaps and Sonic speaking this time.

 

Chaos 0 in Forces: Welcome back.

 

This is the best cutscene so far. I don't see a problem with it at all.

The lipflaps is a general issue but it didn't distract me. Edit: okay. When you look DIRECTLY at the mouth, it's weird as fuck. But otherwise, it's ignorable.

Also, Cindy Robinson puts a nice performance midway between her old and new portrayal. But I'm pretty sure the "wonderful!" Is reused, heh.

Chaos was pimped out in marketing only to not even have a model in game. Sonic was only teased for a fee seconds in two trailers. It's far less egregious.

Shadow Generations also set the expectations lower for how much to expect so while no Sonic fight is disappointing, that's nearly the default expectation.

The only thing that makes me go "this should be here" is the lack of a Shadow '05 level. Things like no Sonic fight or no Infinite is more "oh, I wish they did that, oh well".

 

What Sonic says and his delivery don't match his expression or as a response to what Amy says.

It's really awkward, even ignoring the fact that he didn't talk originally.
---

Amy: Thanks for saving me Sonic, I'll return the favor.

Sonic: Ok? Not interested.

 

It's less "not interested" and more "don't have time for that", since she talks about next time. Her animation also still implies flirtiness so his response is more "yeah, hold that thought for now Amy, I need to save the rest of them".

On a grander scale, it fits the other cutscenes. In Chemical Plant, Sonic focuses more on saving their friends while Tails thinks about their situation, and in the Knuckles rescue, he tells Knuckles to "get in line" when he says he wants to fight the Time Eater.

So it's a general idea of "Sonic is really focused on saving everyone". So far, Sonic is characterized as being Hyper focused on saving everyone and not worried about the Time Eater at the moment and the ctuscenes fit that characterization.