Spoiler-free Sonic Mania discussion thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Overlord, Aug 10, 2017.

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  1. Laughingcow

    Laughingcow

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    If we're talking boost Sonic's level design, can anyone say with certainty that building such levels really takes more time than say building the levels in the first Unreal? How bout open world games like Mad Maxx or Farcry?

    This idea that Boost Sonic levels take longer to make is something I've always questioned. We are literally running down long corridors. Pretty corridors but still Crash Bandicoot like corridors.
     
  2. Lilly

    Lilly

    Previously .Luke Member
    I'm curious about this as well, because it would be awesome to watch Mania play on an ancient PC tower or Thinkpad.

    Although if it runs on Windows 7, Vista can run it as well. (Which is also somewhat ancient by today's standards.) That would be close enough for me.

    Imagine making several to a dozen real-world miles of terrain, both on the course and beyond what you can access, (think of how far the view distance is in Generations) then letting a render farm work at lighting the final level for literal days. I'm glossing over a lot of stuff, but that's no small feat to produce, if you ask me.
     
  3. Skyler

    Skyler

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    Friendly reminder about spoilers.

    Don't become shark bait.
     
  4. W.A.C.

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    I got to play through all of Sonic's content and most of the zones with Tails using a friend's PS4 last night. I would've played more when he was over, but after being up for 22 hours, my body crashed. lol I'm very lucky that a friend a was willing to stay at my house over night so I could play through a lot of the game on his system. I want to go back to playing the game, but the PC version doesn't come out until for another 13 days. ;_; Though I'll also get to try the game on a friend's Switch this Friday. I think I'll save Knuckles gameplay for when I get the PC version, though I did try him briefly and he controlled great.
     
  5. Laughingcow

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    Copy and Paste. That's not a joke, I can literally do that in PostEd (POSTAL 2's version of Unreal Engine 2's editor). While the sections are long, they are still same looking. Hm, let's examine a level shall we?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvP7fGpQOT0

    Rooftop run from Sonic Generations.

    27 second mark we have an obvious case of said copy and paste. Vertical staircases stacked for a long section. The buildings on side are similar but that brings about my next point.
    32 second mark we have a nice area shot where we can see the surroundings. If you look at the buildings you'll see clear moments of them using the same structure and in some cases removing a floor from them so they appear to be a different size. While it is obvious that they aren't gonna make a 100+ buildings, it does show that they do indeed reuse stuff for scenery. For the sake of not stating the obvious, let's ignore that some of this geometry may have been recycled from Unleashed.
    45 second mark we begin the first 2d section. Naturally it's comprised of similar looking buildings but they've added some plantlife detail because unlike the boost sections, the player has an actual chance of seeing finer details here.
    53 second mark we are back to a linear section running up a building that's been constricted to three lanes by nonsensical repeating geometry. Again, they only made one section of this then copied and pasted for how many miles they needed. There isn't any other details of note cause you're moving too fast.
    1 min mark, we've reached a slower trick section. Details are added in the form of balloons which are more or less the same with different textures.
    1 min 5 second mark, we get a nice area shot of the city. It's an impressive shot but clearly a case of them reusing the same orange buildings we've seen throughout the level. They added several patches of greenery and the large wall is something of note cause I don't think that was recycled. The roads generic which isn't surprising cause the player doesn't go there. Keep in mind I'm taking into account the LOD isn't going to render at such a distance.
    1 min 10 second mark, back to a 2d section. This area was fairly obvious in the other shot as one of the non-generic looking pieces of geometry. Some loops and the usual three path structure. Keep in mind we only see about half of this structure and what we do see nothing of particular note. Like other slower sections, there is some plantlife detail.
    1 min 20 second mark, another running section. Just pause the video and look at the nonsensical rectangular tree patch growing on the roof of a building in the shade with a taller building to the right of it.
    1 min 22 second mark, a small running section followed by a drifting section. The beginning shows some clearly recycled buildings on both sides where they change the color of the shade blockers on each side. The floor below though does look to be rendered by hand and not a simple copy & paste job though. On the drifting section you can see where they placed the buildings as it isn't a true circle. A simple case of copy, paste, rotate, and paste again making look inorganic. Again the player isn't going to notice this but this doesn't look like it would take long to build, texture, etc.
    1 min 27 second mark, Squeeze section. I don't think I really need to point out the simplicity of this. They recycled a corridor then placed small rectangular wall areas on the left or right depending on where they wanted you to move. Obvious is the plant rectangle that they used twice and a repeated area on the right side. Again, copy and paste.
    1 min 36 second mark, We have a wider area but if you look to the walls, the same samey buildings we've seen throughout the level. They added some props to run through but a wide corridor is still just a corridor. Though I do like the added arches afterwards, they make a nice transition to the drifting area.
    1 min 40 second mark, an optional slower section. Top section is fast, bottom section is slow. Worth noting that the geometry here looks original which is important. Fast section = Copy & paste.
    1 min 45 second mark, note the circular pillar structure. Looks very much like thing from 1 min 10 second mark. They cut pieces from that and used it to make this other similar structure. At the very least, they could have textured it differently.
    1 min 46 second mark, Place spike, move cursor, place spike, move cursor, place spike, etc. Look at the windows on the right side, same arch repeated three times.
    1 min 49 second mark, big loop which is very nice. The following road is also a pleasure, the slope is beautiful. That said, this might be a copy and paste job but the fact that I'm questioning it means it was done right.
    1 min 55 second mark, Sigh, back to the corridors. Look to the left, look to the right, we're moving fast so nobody can see we recycled. Same obvious mistake with the plants and arches. It's even more obvious cause it's a really long section granted you wouldn't notice while playing cause you're trying to avoid the laser.
    2 min 22 second mark, END of stage...Where the hell was I supposed to end up at exactly? We are at the end so you'd think they'd make it more impressive. This isn't a recycling thing, just sayin.

    Hm, this ended up more like ranting than I thought it would but the point is that this level is just a long road which isn't going to take too long to build and actually doesn't need many finer details because Sonic runs through most areas. The "miles and miles" isn't gonna take much to make (copy and paste) and isn't well detailed cause Sonic moves so fast you can't see it anyway (including the inaccessible areas). Now, this would take time to build true, but not any more than any other game. Nothing here says, "That's gonna take a lot of time". It's not like the open world of Xenoblade or the labyrinth like maps of the Metroid Prime games.

    And as for lighting, that is just a silly argument to make. Aside from the fact that other bigger games have Global Illumination, the "network of computers for days" isn't something exclusive to Sonic. Unreal Engine 3 had that option which is called, "UnrealSwarm" which did exactly that.
    https://docs.unrealengine.com/udk/Three/Swarm.html

    Granted, they wanna shoot these things out every year. I think that may have something to do with it.
     
  6. The days are so agonizing but I am strong :D. Altho I keep seeing Sonic Mania in dreams every night haha. Thanks for this topic, I keep peeking every day here to read other people opinions and stuff.
     
  7. Lilly

    Lilly

    Previously .Luke Member
    12 more days isn't so bad. My bigger concern is whether I'll be able to download and play it the moment it unlocks, since I'll be back in college soon. Release day is (possibly) on a day I'll be home, at least.

    Does Steam do midnight unlocks, or is everything forced to unlock at 1PM when the store updates? The latter might make me (somewhat) impatient, like a little kid on Christmas morning. I find myself wishfully eyeballing the Mania entry in my Steam library as it is.

    If you want to inform someone that they're probably wrong, that tone will more often than not get people, even a few reasonable ones, defensive instead of listening/agreeing with you when you're making good points. (And you have made a detailed argument I can't refute. I'm surprised my little post warranted such a response, really.)

    Personally, I've hardened myself against unintended abrasiveness over the years, but I thought I'd throw that in there. All you have to do tell them why they're wrong, and if they start screaming in all caps, then you've got every reason to be cold about it. :specialed:

    That said, I can't disagree with your winded list of points. In fact, it might be silly of me to do so. :v:

    It's obviously not unique to Sonic, if not far from an uncommon thing. Crash's developers, which you mentioned earlier, also had render farms for their levels, and that was in the 90's.

    Interesting to learn Unreal 3 offers that too, though. Wasn't aware of game making suites like it with such a feature.
     
  8. Lapper

    Lapper

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    I hope most here are still avoiding spoilers religiously - It's so worth it!
    I still cant wait to get the game on PC because I only have the standard Switch joycons and they don't have the best direction controls for a Sonic game in general. The analog stick sometimes doesn't want you to roll and the buttons aren't clicky enough. :colbert:

    On a different topic, I saw an article saying that this was the first good Sonic game and the ones in the past including classics were never good. Yay Mania I guess.. but what? Doesn't really make much sense when this game uses the same gameplay base, they never gave a reason.
     
  9. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    Because they got salty and while this game has done some damage control, only this game is currently on some people's minds. I'm sure once they've had more time with this they might go revisit the originals and remember that those were good too.
     
  10. synchronizer

    synchronizer

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    How about an old Windows 7 i3 laptop with intel graphics? Should that be good enough for a stable 60fps?
     
  11. serpx

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    That's definitely a perspective thing.

    Personally, for me, my favorite on the classics are:

    1) S3&K
    2) Sonic Mania
    3) Sonic CD

    Sonic 3 & Knuckles, to me, is still a greater epic than Mania. That's one, for story reasons. Two, Hyper Sonic. The game is just ... pure epic.

    Sonic Mania is mega smooth, very enjoyable, very replayable. I feel like a few fixes, and a game that's 100% new, could dethrown my #1 if done right. This is definitely a very subjective and debatable topic. Eitherway, it's an incredible entry.
     
  12. Tets

    Tets

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    I haven't completed the game yet, but Sonic Mania is easily a contender for my new favorite 2D platformer. There's obviously a lot of polish and love put into this game, and it really takes the sour aftertaste of Yooka-Laylee out of my mouth. Best retro throwback since Shovel Knight. God damn it I hope Sega keeps running with this, they've got a great formula for successful Sonic games again.
     
  13. VectorCNC

    VectorCNC

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    While it could be a matter of personal taste, you make a good point about the Classic's being the foundation upon which Mania was created, so it reasons that if they think Mania is good, then the Classics should at least be OK by comparison.

    Honestly, you see this type of mentality a lot, obvious examples would be climate science, or support for Trump. Some people just like to be controversial, it's a method of getting attention and it makes them feel smart, because, they know the real story unlike all the sheeple. It's sort of a conspiratorial mentality, like when IGN says "Sonic was never good", as "game journalists" they ought to know that doesn't make any sense, and such an argument is only reasonably possible if you neglect to account for the given context the game was released in. I mean, ok, maybe by today's standards the Classic's aren't good, to you... but to say "was never good", implies you are taking account of the context the Classic's were born out of. So if that's the case, then how do you explain basically everything which followed Sonic 1, the sequels, the media, the fandom, etc. It's just damn nonsense, and it's a pretty good way of delegitimizing your entire opinion and review of the game.

    [​IMG]
     
  14. LordOfSquad

    LordOfSquad

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    Weird, I think there might be something wrong with your joycons. The buttons on my set are super-clicky, and the stick's never given me responsiveness issues. I've really been enjoying playing with them.

    But I wanna second your first point; this game's been a non-stop thrill ride from start to finish, with so many great twists and callbacks. I can't wait for the rest of y'all to be able to play it. And I can't wait to jump into the spoiler topic myself; I still have the last level to beat when I get home today.
     
  15. 12 days.
     
  16. XCubed

    XCubed

    Will Someday Own a Rent-A-Center Oldbie
    If you've stayed away from spoilers/spoiler topic, how do you know it's the last level? :colbert:
     
  17. JigenD

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    LMAO @ the cheap attempt at taking jabs at your political adversaries, and hoping it just sticks and no one really notices.
     
  18. VectorCNC

    VectorCNC

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    Was really just looking for an example where 99% of the world agrees on something, and the outlying 1% have to do mental gymnastics to support their opinions, but whatever. FYI, I'm Canadian.
     
  19. Overlord

    Overlord

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    This is NOT a politics thread, stop before you start.
     
  20. LordOfSquad

    LordOfSquad

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    Because the name of it got posted in here yesterday at one point before it got whisked off to the trash. whoops

    Even if that hadn't happened, you can see how many levels there are total if you check the time attack menu, so I've been counting down.
     
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