Sound Test $10

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Mercury, Aug 3, 2009.

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  1. Mercury

    Mercury

    His Name Is Sonic Tech Member
    A long time ago, when I first discovered Sound Test $10, I'd only ever seen the screen shot of a desert zone, supposedly cut from Sonic 2. I'd never heard of (or seen any shots of) Hidden Palace at the time. Naturally, I assumed it was the theme to the cut zone.

    Now, years later, after having heard of Hidden Palace, everywhere I turn I hear Sound Test $10 referred to as Hidden Palace. Yet, in the Beta, this is not the music applied to that zone. I know this might be placeholder music (like Starlight Zone's BGM in the Alpha), but Masa has said in <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/Masato_Nakamura_interview_by_Sonic_Central_(May_18,_2005)" target="_blank">this interview</a> that he composed music specifically for the zones, after seeing art for them. Now, Sonic 2 may have different, what with the added headache of having to keep in contact between the STI in Palo Alto, and Masa's studio in London.

    The question is, what absolute, ironclad, unassailable proof do we have that Sound Test $10 was intended for Hidden Palace Zone? If there is none, what is the best evidence? No "I think it sounds more like a palace level", please, because I've always thought it sounded like a baking desert, because I heard in it what I expected it to be. These things are very subjective.

    The reason I ask is because I'm putting both zones in my game. I don't know whether to go with my opinion (Sound Test $10 sounds more like the desert zone), with majority opinion (Sound Test $10 is Hidden Palace), or if there is some way to objectively clench it either way.
     
  2. Banoon

    Banoon

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    If I remember correctly, "recovering" Hidden Palace into Sonic 2 Final gave you sound $10.
     
  3. Watkins

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    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2knBIMo1mLo" target="_blank">You beat me to it.</a>

    Yeah, the guy above me basically nailed it, I think.
     
  4. Delta

    Delta

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    <a href="http://info.sonicretro.org/Hidden Palace Zone" target="_blank" style="background: url(http://info.sonicretro.org/images/5/50/Reticon.png) right no-repeat; padding-right: 20px; border-bottom: 1px dotted #3366BB; color: #3366BB; cursor:pointer; text-decoration:none;" class="wiki">Hidden Palace Zone</a>
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Hidden Palace is also playable in the final version of Sonic 2 if the Game Genie code ACLA-ATD4 is entered. . . . Interestingly the unused music track 10 from the sound test is played here.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    As for why music is even there, one completely unsubstantiated but somewhat plausible theory is that the developers decided to leave in a short but sad-sounding tune in the game to "express" their disappointment that they had to cut out one of the nicest-looking zones.

    Or, it was just a random song composed before it was decided where it would go, and eventually ended up unused.

    No one knows, really.
     
  5. RAMPKORV

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    The song also sounds like the sonic 1 special zone music.
     
  6. Skyler

    Skyler

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    <!--quoteo(post=337647:date=Aug 3 2009, 02:26 AM:name=RAMPKORV)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RAMPKORV @ Aug 3 2009, 02:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=337647"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The song also sounds like the sonic 1 special zone music.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I never knew that before. They do sound alike now that you mention it.

    Considering the music was either altered or switched around during development, it's possible that same idea was applied to HPZ. The track itself also sounds incomplete, so it could have started being composed right before the Hidden Palace was scrapped.
     
  7. Tweaker

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    You'll notice that out of all the zones that were scrapped before the release of Sonic 2, Hidden Palace was the only one that had a majority of its data still intact—the object layout, ring llayout, title card, mappings data and even level order (which defaults to EHZ1 for unused level slots) were all present in the final release of Sonic 2 upon accessing HPZ's level slot. It is very important to note that <I>no other level has these qualities intact.</I>

    The next thing to consider is that sound test $10 is one of the few songs not present in the Simon Wai Sonic 2 prototype. The addition of a proper title card—a quality which all other scrapped levels lack—plus the fact that this song was present and <I>specifically called</I> show pretty clearly that Hidden Palace was not only worked on after its inclusion in the Wai proto, but that specific variables were updated to reflect its completed state like the other levels that made it into the final game did.

    It can be logically deduced, therefore, that if the title card, object layout, and level order were updated for this zone—and correctly, mind you—that there is no reason to doubt that the change to the level's music playlist was also legitimate. This and many other factors point to what should be a fairly obvious conclusion—sound test $10 was undeniably intended to be the final BGM used in Hidden Palace Zone.

    Honestly, I don't even know why this is up for debate. Not only does the music fit the zone and is specifically called by the game, but there's nothing else it really <I>could</I> fit. I suppose it's possible that we could get some sort of official confirmation on the matter, but I find it pretty pointless considering all the factors involved.

    By the way...
    <!--quoteo(post=337639:date=Aug 3 2009, 05:03 AM:name=Mercury)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mercury @ Aug 3 2009, 05:03 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=337639"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't know whether to go with my opinion (Sound Test $10 sounds more like the desert zone), with majority opinion (Sound Test $10 is Hidden Palace), or if there is some way to objectively clench it either way.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I can't even <I>begin</I> to understand how you could possibly think that song would fit a desert environment under any circumstances.
     
  8. amphobius

    amphobius

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    <!--quoteo(post=337647:date=Aug 3 2009, 10:26 AM:name=RAMPKORV)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RAMPKORV @ Aug 3 2009, 10:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=337647"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The song also sounds like the sonic 1 special zone music.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    If we also take in mind that Naka said that Sonic would be taken to HPZ once he gained all Chaos Emeralds to gain Super Sonic, this kinda makes sense.
     
  9. Vendettagainst

    Vendettagainst

    Apparently shooting kills things Member
    It's played when Hidden Palace is accessed. I doubt they set it so that the pointers would play that music for an incomplete level they didn't expect people to play in the final game.

    The thing I'm more interested in is why Hidden Palace was scrapped if it was (or so close to being) complete.
     
  10. Quexinos

    Quexinos

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    Because it wasn't that close to being complete, they had a 4th of a zone there at best :eng101:
     
  11. Skyler

    Skyler

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    <!--quoteo(post=337654:date=Aug 3 2009, 03:04 AM:name=Quexinos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quexinos @ Aug 3 2009, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=337654"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because it wasn't that close to being complete, they had a 4th of a zone there at best :eng101:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    :objection:
    They had 1/8 done out of two acts. [/technicalfag]
     
  12. Quexinos

    Quexinos

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    Which is why I said "at best"

    Also I thought the only thing worked on for HPZ after Simon's beta was the title card and music. The zone layout itself didn't seem to make it any further into development...
     
  13. Vendettagainst

    Vendettagainst

    Apparently shooting kills things Member
    <!--quoteo(post=337656:date=Aug 3 2009, 05:09 AM:name=Quexinos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quexinos @ Aug 3 2009, 05:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=337656"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Which is why I said "at best"

    Also I thought the only thing worked on for HPZ after Simon's beta was the title card and music. The zone layout itself didn't seem to make it any further into development...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    They got running water and auto-spin in the tubes.

    But my bad. I thought it was meant to be a 1-act short zone, only to be used when you got the 7 chaos emeralds, somewhat similar to how it's used in Sonic 3K.
     
  14. Tweaker

    Tweaker

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    <!--quoteo(post=337656:date=Aug 3 2009, 06:09 AM:name=Quexinos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quexinos @ Aug 3 2009, 06:09 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=337656"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also I thought the only thing worked on for HPZ after Simon's beta was the title card and music. The zone layout itself didn't seem to make it any further into development...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The object layout was modified to include the auto-spinning objects for the tube that you go through at the beginning of the zone. I'm also fairly positive it wasn't an automated process—someone edited the object layout to add them in.

    I think that's one of the many things that make it clear that they <I>wanted</I> to include Hidden Palace in the final game, but extremely tight time constraints held them back from being able to accomplish that goal. It's a shame, too—the level had so much potential!
     
  15. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    If I remember correctly, the only thing that was added to the level was the auto-spin object at the tube entrances.

    EDIT: They beat me to it. =\
     
  16. Eviltaco64

    Eviltaco64

    Hopelessly Lost in Aisle 5 Member
    Track 10 is definitely HPZ's tune.

    I look at it like this. Wood Zone was scrapped earlier in development and still plays the MPZ tune in the Final (even though it was just a broken EHZ by then :P). If HPZ was scrapped around the same time, maybe it would've also played the incorrect tune, possibly the OOZ tune. It also most certainly wouldn't have been as complete as it is.

    Hidden Palace Zone was at least in development long enough to get it's own icon and title card. So, if it was the most developed of the discarded zones, then wouldn't it make sense for a track that isn't heard anywhere else in the game to be it's tune?
     
  17. Clutch

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    Oil Ocean always felt like the most like a "Desert" theme to me, if anything did.
     
  18. Cinossu

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    Another thing to prove, at least, that it's a level music, is that the speed up effect works on it, whereas non-level musics in Sonic 2 tend to not have that effect set up for it.

    Also, what everyone else has already said about Hidden Palace's remains using that as its music etc. etc.
     
  19. Lobotomy

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    <!--quoteo(post=337655:date=Aug 3 2009, 02:07 AM:name=Moonshadow Caz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Moonshadow Caz @ Aug 3 2009, 02:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=337655"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=337654:date=Aug 3 2009, 03:04 AM:name=Quexinos)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Quexinos @ Aug 3 2009, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=337654"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because it wasn't that close to being complete, they had a 4th of a zone there at best :eng101:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    :objection:
    They had 1/8 done out of two acts. [/technicalfag]
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I don't exactly remember where I heard this, but I heard HPZ was supposed to have 3 ACTS, just like Metropolis does. Then again, there's no evidence to support this, since after HPZ ACT 2, it goes straight to Oil Ocean Zone.
     
  20. ddrmaxromance

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    <!--quoteo(post=337650:date=Aug 3 2009, 05:53 AM:name=Moonshadow Caz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Moonshadow Caz @ Aug 3 2009, 05:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=337650"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=337647:date=Aug 3 2009, 02:26 AM:name=RAMPKORV)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RAMPKORV @ Aug 3 2009, 02:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=337647"><img src="public/style_images/retro/snapback.png"></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The song also sounds like the sonic 1 special zone music.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I never knew that before. They do sound alike now that you mention it.

    Considering the music was either altered or switched around during development, it's possible that same idea was applied to HPZ. The track itself also sounds incomplete, so it could have started being composed right before the Hidden Palace was scrapped.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This is because both songs are based off a waltz in 3/4 key signature. Also, the fact that the melody plays on beats 1 and 3 for both songs is another reason why they sound similar to the human ear. As stated above, of course, there was probably a direct relationship with chaos emeralds and special stages. Masato Nakamura cleverly wrote a similar song similar to one another. They are also 24 measures long [sonic 1 ss; short] vs. 40 measures [sonic 2 hpz; still short], but share likable chord progressions and patterns.

    I remember reading once how Tails would fly down to HPZ after Sky Chase Zone. <b>What's interesting to note about these last few zones is how most of them are not Rock or Pop beats.</b> Rock and pop entices speed and agility movement through levels. Once the gamer enters Sky Chase Zone, the tempo begins to slow down as the level is no longer about speed, but more about getting ready for the big battle. Wing Fortress Zone, as you may hear is more of a majestic nature with timpani, orchestra instruments, and little percussion. These levels focus more on a fixed path with some exploration. <I>Around here is HPZ, which is a waltz, which cues to the last level, being Death Egg Zone, whose song is also a waltz.</I> A little intereresting if you ask me how Nakamura organized the music to flow through with one another. It's something we sort of take for granted, but it's really something neat to know that exists! And of course, the last song is majestic with a drum beat towards the end.


    I took college courses on this kinda stuff...lol.
     
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