@Kharen I'm gonna answer a few of these questions for both you and whoever else reading, so we're all on the same page and stuff. An isometric map, as well as a top view (if necessary for the particular piece you do), and enough art skill to make something where we can tell what's going on. Even if it's sketchy and primitive, that's fine, as long as we can make a bit of sense of it. As for knowledge requirements, I'd say understanding what sort of layouts would be 'cohesive and fun to play' (if I could borrow that wording from Tiller for a moment, lol) is what we're looking for the most in a level layout designer. Someone who can look at the set-pieces we build and find ways to make them flow into each other, but also leave room to breathe. Someone who can think up layouts that aren't afraid to try alternate routes, can be open for exploration sometimes, and is based on slopey terrain / loops / runnable walls / ramps etc as well as flatter areas. And yeah, we don't really need a modeler for the levels at the moment. We've got who we need for that. All that's needing to be done is drawing these layouts, which will be followed by me and whoever else trying to polish and make more references from it to show attention to detail (or possibly adding more pieces as well), and then the modeler carves it out. I posted the level list in the original OP. But since I hid that original post in spoiler tags (thus noone would be obligated to look there), I'll post them here: I can go into more detail in private discussion, mostly because I don't wanna spill all the beans on the assets and whatnot. Trying to hide your content enough to keep things a surprise yet let people know what you're doing to get recruit is hard. ;<; But yeah, it's a lot of classic-esque esque settings. If the level suits itself to have floating areas or whatnot, then so be it. Everything's meant to feel established though, yet all fantastic at the same time. 3D is going to be the majority of the level design, though a few areas in the game may have small segments of 2D level design. It's definitely not going to be a regular thing in stages, though, and at most be segments that don't take very long to get through. More modern, for sure. Anything more ancient or medieval is left for the later "Windy Ruins Zone". Never against cinematic moments, but definitely not to the point where it's limited to automation; we're going for only very sparse amounts of that in the game. Quick time events are a no-no, but the "homing attack the enemies as they swoop by and carry Sonic across to a new route" thing, yes. Most of the ideas for level design are to take advantage of running, jumping, rolling, Spindashing, and the jump dash / homing attack. That's the basic actions the player will be doing for most (if not all) of the game over anything else, so building areas based around using them would be ideal (although I'm not really for areas that force the player to use homing chains, for example). But yeah, hope any of this extra info helps anyone looking at this. On another hand though, its been a good few days since I posted this request, and I've had a sort of change of heart. I feel like I should probably take back my role as main level layout designer, since I feel like I can't describe what I'm looking for to someone well enough without them knowing the ins and outs of this game like I do so far, so I feel like I'm asking for way too much to request this. Am I, or is this is all reasonable? I'm gonna have to let it not get to me, cuz if we need help then we need help. Regardless, I guess it's nice to see who can offer their assistance in this, and I can get that person to at least work as an assistant level designer. We do need all the help we can get, after all.
Hello, everyone, I'd like to introduce myself. I'm Silva, the... *looks at notes* (Co-director? Oh, okay.) Co-director of this project! Azukara's had me as his right hand man since I came onto this project about two years ago to help keep it afloat when it was sinking faster than Omega in a water stage. Since then, I've done my best to handle organization, carry out recruitment, encouraging proper communication, as well as keeping positive and creative energies among our team members continuously flowing even in our downtime. I had a heavy hand in not only in the resurrection of the project, but in its re-imagining this past year as well. More recently, I felt this new vision necessitated some intense re-planning to make use of the time given to us by these past Summer months. The streamlining of the process has pushed us in a whole new direction, while still keeping in mind what Azukara set out to do at its inception. We've made really good progress behind the scenes with new faces, and much more concentration on what's important for our team and project. Prepare for more useful insight on the project, my arguments with Azukara, and bad jokes from me soon. :]
Still wanting to sketch up a level idea, and had a couple more questions. Are there multiple Acts per Zone? Cascade Grove is described as rolling hills with a forest and valley in the sky. Would that be a hill-filled plain for Act 1, a forest for Act 2, and a valley for Act 3, or one unified level with all three? How are boss fights spaced out? Does each Zone have it's own boss battle, or will be be something like Heroes where it's a consistant Zone, Zone, Boss pattern, or will it just be boss fights spaced randomly apart? Are boss battles set in stone, or will you wait for each level to be planned out before working out an appropriate boss?
No problem, Kharen. For the game we're going with 2 Acts per Zone. Most likely with the end of every Act 2 having that Zone's Boss, or just pushing the Boss into its own Act. Cascade Grove is... well, allow me to take a snippet from our GDD: With that in mind, I wanted to have it transition from a little coastal starting area into a beautiful, open field/meadow-type area which becomes thicker as it enters a more forest-like area. As we make our way through the bustling forest, we encounter rushing waters that propel us forward into new dangers as well as into the second Act. At this point, we continue with the forest trope until we begin to make our way down waterfalls and up cliff areas, eventually ending up high into the clouds for a bit, before making our way back down back into the forest. After this last bit of forest we end up back into an open field, though having a more ominous feel than before. At this point we come rolling into an area that alludes to what may be waiting for us in the Boss battle ahead. As with all Bosses, we want them to heavily reflect major plot elements that will reveal themselves as progress through the stages are made by the player. At this time, we have the main idea of each Boss's theme with a few of their physical concepts fleshed out as much as their stages, but are saving them for after each stage is created as we can definitely have more freedom with them at that point.
Interesting. That's the opposite of what initially came to mind. You guys said that you were going for an open-world design plan rather than an Unleashed/Generations style hallway run. My first thought was to start in a forest with maybe 30 seconds to a minute of Generations-style level design before leading out into a huge open field for a bit of surprise for the player as the first major setpiece. Now, regarding the open-world concept, I had an idea on how to make designing the level a bit easier. You know how in 3D Zelda games, you can hit the Z-Button to lock the camera on a targeted enemy? I was thinking, what if you had invisible waypoints scattered throughout the levels. Each area of the level corresponds to a nearby waypoint, and the player could hit a button to swivel the camera towards the matching waypoint. Continuing to use Zelda as a reference, imagine if the level was Ocarina of Time's "Hyrule Field". If you're closest to Hyrule Castle, the camera button would swivel towards Hyrule Castle to show you that the closest route towards progression is that way. If you manage to head more towards Gerudo Valley, the camera would point that way when prompted, to show that the route over there is the closest path for progression compared to your current location. That way, even in the worst case scenario where you find that your level is too wide open and unfocused, the player can hit a button for a sort of "Where should I go next?" hint. Of course, that shouldn't happen, but even with a well-designed level, it could be used to help find alternate routes and pathways. Anyways, I tried printing out some isometric graph paper at the college, but the printer didn't want to cooperate. Now that I'm finished with homework, I'll see if I can get a better printout so I can try sketching some ideas out.
Oh dang. The game hasn't really been 'open world' since the project started waaayyy long ago (about 2010-2011 when it was still a Blitzsonic game lol), honestly. Since then, that idea was thrown out the window since we wanted to focus more on just making a really dang good game instead. We may have never been too terribly clear on that since we switched over ideas (due to vagueness and hiding the game's development and info away, completely my fault there), but without a doubt since the beginning of this year the game's philosophy hasn't been based on open-world level design. It's far too complex for Sonic game standards, IMO. The idea's been since we reorganized to make level design very similar to Adventure 1 if it had more paths to choose from and less automation. Or in better words, SA1 with a pinch of SRB2 influence possibly? Levels are split into acts and have their own sort of progression based on both the geography of the stage as well as story events. Sure, it's a lot less ambitious as the idea of an open-world game, but I'd rather deliver the best dang game possible instead of risk it so hard on something I don't think will work too well in the first place. Sorry if I/we confused you or anyone else. :X
Oh thank God... I was willing to give it a shot, but open-world Sonic Zones sounded like a huge challenge and I wasn't even sure I'd be able to do anything that good with the idea. A good open-world level would be pretty fun, though. Just too much of a task for me to attempt. Like I said earlier, this is my first time trying to design anything 3D. So far, my track record's only been 2D stuff, and even then, it was a demo of a Zelda/Metroid game, not a side-scrolling Sonic game.
When people say more open Sonic I never took it as open OPEN world. It just means you aren't pushed through a tube with the occasional jump to automate you somewhere else. An entirely open world Sonic game would seriously pose problems to the basic structuring of Sonic's formula. The Green Hill open world experiment in GDK illustrates the problems perfectly with lack of direction and freedom to bypass anything that resembles a challenge in the level design.What I would assume in an enhanced Adventure sort of design is that Sonic always needs to be pointed to go someplace "B" but given multiple options to get there from someplace "A" and not the will of the dreaded dash pad. From the sounds of the original trope description and concept art it felt more like big parts of valley/forest/plains were suspended in the sky. I imagined something completely different, where massive trees and branches are interwoven in massive chunks of land forming plains and hills held slightly aloft over a valley backdrop. I think its because I have a massive bias for exploiting stylized trees as stuff Sonic can run on. :specialed:
The 'Green Hill Paradise' stage was exactly what I was thinking about just then. Yeah, open world and Sonic don't mix well. Actually, I do have an idea on how it could work though, but it would literally require the workload of a professional team that's getting paid full-time for it, like Sonic Team. lol It's just too much to worry about. And yeah, you're right on point. The level design style of Adventure with more routes to take, and not as nearly under the influence of the dashpad. (I still think the dashpads were rampant in SA1 due to the engine being too buggy to handle certain areas without them, sort of like a design crutch.. and then they somehow became a design decision. At least that's what it feels like.) Silva's got the idea of the stage down pat, but at the same time there are a lot of parts in the artwork of the stage that show clouds surrounding it. Those clouds are mostly meant to be those sort of low-hanging clouds that surround most of the cliff areas, and go below some areas that are slightly floating. They're there usually for purely aesthetic reasons, but in some areas they're meant for bouncing on to get back up to the stage, since this is the first Zone and all. The "partially adrift in the sky" description isn't completely off, but it's less important than it used to be, at least. Still a part of the level anyways.
I actually believe this has more to do with controlling the pacing of the level. Remember that Sonic games need to feel quick and speedy, and the best way to inject a boost into your experience is to have the camera move or flex it's FOV. The problem with this though is that, the more the camera is moving, the less the player will be able to control their player as the controls are directly tied to the angle of the camera. You can use the dash panels to guide the player through a section where the camera moves dynamically, since they have a control lockout and let you set the player's angle directly. You also don't want these motions to take forever since that would also negate the purpose of the camera motion, so you use the panel's acceleration to push the player through the segment quickly. This design does fundamentally come with a loss of player's feeling of agency, since they will quickly recognize that control is being taken from them (if the transition is too long). There are ways to tweak the design around this, but they all come with their own problems.
I feel like if there's any loss of control the player would have, it'd be very brief at longest. Anything longer than that will probably be set to a 2D sidescroller movement when worst comes to worst, instead of straight up automating the path. I feel like that's the answer to a lot of questions about loops or really crazy spirals or something; just put the path you take on that to a spline. It holds back control in regards to moving side to side, but whenever going through something like that, I'm not sure if it's really that necessary (minus the occasional wider loop where it'd be exception or something). Besides that, I don't know many areas that would require you to take control away from the player for it to be exciting, even when using a specific camera angle. For example, the wall-running segments in Adventure (particularly the one in Emerald Coast) are amongst my favorite areas in the whole game, and they not only use dynamic camera angles but also give you full control. I don't think there's any sort of excitement lost in that; it's all in the fun of building up your speed to make it to some high-up path, or a hidden object, and I kinda feel the same about a lot of things like loops and etc too. Not saying I'd never make a level that doesn't feature dash pads (I actually love them when used sparingly) but yeah.
I'm not saying you have to use dash panels in your project. I'm giving you insight into the purpose they served in the context of the original adventure games. Obviously you can (and should) try coming up with different solutions. But you should know of the problems Sonic Team faced while designing the adventure games as well as the solutions they chose and why they chose them so that you can avoid making mistakes that have already been made. Don't re-invent the wheel as it were. It isn't just about the camera's angle, it is the angle and position relative to the player. The amount the position and angle change per-frame (as well as field of view) contribute directly to the difficulty in controlling the character, as well as *adding* to the overall sense of speed. In this sense, you have two conflicting incentives here. The player's agency versus their engagement with the game. Many of the wall sections in Sonic Adventure only worked because they slowly eased into position, but countrary to what you have said, many of the notable examples do *not* give you control for the entire section. Speed highway explicitly places dash panels during the hardest parts to navigate of the transition (which is when the camera is moving) to prevent the players from flying off into the distance. This exact setup is used in 2 out of the three wall running sections in speed highway. Yes, there are no dash panels after the transition, but the transition is exactly when they are needed the most. The thing you may or may not know about dash panels is that the two major properties nearly every implementation has are: - a control lockout timer - a speed value They let you set the lockout timer *per object* so that you can tweak each one to be contextually appropriate. In fact, it isn't just the dash panels that have this setup. Springs use it too. If you want proof of why these are absolutely necessary, go play my old mod Sonic RDX. You will quickly get aggravated and quit because these lockout timers were not used at all. I guess my overall point is that taking control away from the player isn't a bad thing. It is a tool that can be used incorrectly, but it is absolutely necessary for both pacing and assisting the player through certain areas. What you should do, is playtest rigorously and watch how players are interacting with your layout. They will struggle with certain areas. Create assist devices that give your player a helping hand, but do not do all of the work for them. Feel free to ask me anything else about the design of the games. I can't be your level designer because between my job and SA:gens I'm tapped out. But I am available to offer crits and analysis.
Hey, you know what would be a neat idea? If you guys wouldn't mind, as well as open up the project a bit, perhaps get a advisement group of sorts together strictly for level design discussion. Mostly for the sake of getting some level heads on the matter without having them really draw anything out. Just brainstorm and converse freely. That way we can really hear everyone's ideas on it and be able to more easily share all the assets/info/etc. to help that along. Azu might be cool adding more smart guys to the team, especially if we can get some fresh eyes to look at what we have and think up some really good stuff. Azu of course would do all the grunt work of drawing it all out, since he's perfect for it! (jk) Maybe it sounds dumb, but I'll leave it up to you guys. Just figure I would ask. Haha.
This is pretty much spot on on how Dash Panels work. They're a fun gimmick that helps steer and direct Sonic, but I would like to think current Sonic is way too over reliant on them from a level design aspect. They're at the core of a lot of set pieces from Unleashed onwards and they govern a lot of the state changing and are now a necessary staple given how Modern Sonic controls. They have become so pervasive that the idea of using them as the ultimate tool for setting the pace has wormed its way into places that they are completely unnecessary. Lost World's whole thing was the player being in charge of the pace, and yet every level is loaded up with dash pads for a variety of reasons. Combined to a lesser extent with launch pads and springs it has created this artificial and constrained approach to the newer games that locks the player out more often then they're in control. If you take a step back and look at what you want to do with level design you can build a better Sonic to let players tackle it. Sounds like fun. Just remember too many hands in the cookie jar can result in chaos but a healthy discussion on level design would be beneficial.
Thirding (lol) the discussion idea. I'd love to join in and chip in. I do hope like Azukara or the team looks at what the designer has to offer before adding them to the discussion however. If they're offering something way off from what this game is going for, chaos is ensured. I'm sure Azukara and the team would know what they're doing.
You are all too right. The recent downsizing definitely helped with keeping things out of that chaos zone. Got to have some good heads on-board with the right focus. From what we've seen so far, there are a few of you guys perfect for some good discussion on it. Azu will probably come to who ever's interested with contact details to join our Skype group. Hope that sounds groovy with you guys.
