Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Adamis, Jul 18, 2022.
Except that's literally true in regards to SATAM.
As in that SATAM also got a bunch of dubs?
No, as in there really were no other supporting characters at the time when SATAM came out to play the roles for the story they wanted to tell.
Might be true to an extent, but SatAM left out Mecha Sonic and shoved Tails into the background, giving his role to its OCs. It never added Amy, Metal Sonic or Knuckles, despite them being introduced when the show was still running and producing new episodes. It also had unnecessary characters like Antoine (who was only there to serve as comedy relief and make fun of the French), Dulcy (another comedy relief character, her only real purpose being basically replacing the Tornado) and Snively (who took Robotnik's technical genius from the games).
No I am not going into this "I hate this version of Sonic for X reasons" bullshit that everyone else does.
The creators of SATAM had a specific vision of the series they wanted to create and they did so, shoehorning elements from the games just because goes against that idea. No you don't have to like it and tbh, I don't care if you don't. But that is factual information.
Its the same how I feel about STC!Sonic. Yes, I know the how and why about the character but that doesn't mean I'm not going to criticize its execution.
Have a good day sir.
The point is that many like to act like SatAM took everything it could from the contemporary games and was forced to make up the rest when that's bull. The writers did their own thing because they chose to, not because they had to.
And it's also literally true regarding StC when it's pointed that the comic isn't just some sort of failure in portraying Sonic, but accurately portraying Sonic within the time and place it existed at, which is why I brought up the comparison. I don't like SatAM at all, and think similar cartoons of the time do all it does better- but I certainly understand the historical context that led to it being what it is, and a lot of people refuse to try and understand that regarding StC.
If I bring up nationality is because in response to "you have to understand X and Y in the context of X and Y" I got "then that means all UK humour sucks then?". If you wanna play like that, I absolutely have things to point out regarding America too. OR maybe we don't go there, instead, how about that?
(that said should be pointed out that I do think there's one thing SatAM did that time doesn't excuse- the killing of the use of colour. That much was already clear in the games and materials available at the time, it really is a shame they instead chose to make it a brown show. Much in the same way you can complain the 2nd half of StC diverges too much from the games it's based on.)
EDIT: I mean, I think when we do have to point out "no, the strips not done by Kitching are by and large intended as comedy first, and even the other ones are while action stories, also intended as comedy, and if you knew more about other comic magazines at the time in the UK, this would be something inherently obvious and expected in the format" to me indicates that pointing out that people just genuinely don't know the entire context is worthwhile, because they don't. Doesn't mean you have to like the humour- it's certainly very "british kids cheesy humour" in the vein of a Basil Brush style (there's more to British humour than just Monty Python you know- also while I mention live-action comedians, should definitely be pointed there legit are many other cases of "Americans don't get this" such as the Office, which had to be redone into something softer and less mean)- but it's clearly what it's going for. Why's it relevant? Because it means when you have random moments of characters quipping at each other you're not meant to take it as "in universe, right now, this is a moment of tension and characters being assholes", you're meant to take it as "womp womp here's the punchline ha ha ha ha boom boom". Much like how when a story ends with Sonic quipping at the camera and winking, it doesn't mean you're meant to read him as having a psychotic episode where he speaks to thin air, you're meant to understand "this is a comedic moment where he directly delivers the joke to the audience".
EDIT EDIT just wanna make clear this post is directed at the whole audience- when I say "you" I'm not intending to single Sonic5993 out
I think one key difference between SATAM and STC is this: SATAM's spirit was kept going by the Archie comics for a very long time, and the games themselves eventually leaned in towards SATAM's direction with its darker tones and even the killing of colors that KKM complains about (completely unintentionally, of course!). So I think that leads to people being a lot more forgiving towards SATAM when looking back on things, even if that's unfair to STC. As much as we like to act as objective critics, it's only natural to think of how things are now when looking back at the past.
Snively was the most necessary new character in the show. It's no coincidence that every adaptation of Sonic in comics, animation and film has given Eggman/Robotnik an underling (or two, or three) to talk to when the heroes aren't around.
Eh. At least most adaptations didn't take away Robotnik's technical expertise and give it to his sidekick. I recall one of the SatAM writers even telling fans that he didn't view Robotnik as a doctor.
I feel like the Snively/Robotnik dynamic was more like they're both smart and technically proficient, just Robotnik didn't feel like doing the dirty work so he passed it off to Snively who would do anything for Robotnik because he was too afraid not to. Snively is a lackey, why would Robotnik put himself in harms way when he can send someone he doesn't care about instead.
Grimer from StC though I feel like had all the technical prowess. Robotnik in that was more just power mad using whatever means best suit him, either tech or magic or tech given from someone else. SatAM Robotnik though was definitely tech obsessed
US and UK have cultural differences but we live in a post-internet era when international communication itself has its own cultures surrounding it. It isn't like older internet where people aren't used to the idea they are talking to people on the other side of the globe. I do have some nostalgia for the "my dad could beat up your dad" style pissing contests that happened around StC vs Archie but to get into that now seems kinda... lol
I do think assessing the differences in attitudes of humor is valid because both reflect the kind of personality that might be seen as "cool" in different lights, and my mind went to something like the movie Hot Fuzz, and had me wondering if they were trying to combine international mentalities that Stephen Fry was talking about in the interview BlackHole posted. (It is incidentally one of my favorite movies.)
SatAM was kind of its own thing, but it was the most mature characterization of Sonic at the time, with the games lacking any solid story past what is in the manuals and end sequences (except for CD... lol). I honestly debate with myself whether its post-season 2 cancellation was a good thing. Naugus as a main bad guy would probably have worked about as well as it did for Archie, which is to say it didn't. Everyone back then wanted those eyes to belong to Metal Sonic or Knuckles, and neither was the case, but then I like Naugus as a villain more now than I did as a kid and think Tim Curry as Sally's dad would have been fun to see more of if given to a chance. I think Tails's role as it was characterized felt natural for the situation. It would have been nice to see his character grow.
Snively was definitely a henchman there to contrast with Robotnik. I have to admit the one dynamic I missed from AoSTH at the time was I liked Scratch and Grounder as henchmen better, and think it would have been cool to see slightly more serious robot henchmen with some moderate personality beyond being the bootlicker. I understand that is kind of hard to do when part of the in-universe logic of the show is the terrible thing about becoming a robot is you lose your personality, individuality, and free will but it would not have been the first work of fiction to work in unique robot generals or whatever for the main baddie to talk to.
SATAM, Sonic CD, and Sonic 3 were all developed at roughly the same time. CD came to the US two months after SATAM started airing and Sonic 3 released 5 five months later.
So yes, Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 were in fact all that people knew about the series at the time and all people had to go on if they wanted to build a series around it. You're assuming the creators of SATAM disregarded canon material when no, they just had no way of knowing that the games series were going to introduce three more major characters in games they had no hand in developing.
So developing their own storyline and characters was literally the pragmatic option.
"But they should have added that stuff later"
Derailing your planned out storyline simply to adhere to the source material is the type of shit that killed Archie's storytelling for so many years. At some point, slavishly adapting the source material is in fact more detrimental in the long run and this is something Sonic fans need to really start understanding. Not every adaptation of Sonic needs to adhere strictly to the source material. Otherwise what is the point when you can just go with said source material.
Its called an adaptation, not a remake or remaster.
Its fine, I said the same thing more or less that STC is a product of its time and another's vision about Sonic. I have no problem with that, but that doesn't mean its immune to criticism in how it was done.
I can't control what others say about it, but speaking purely for myself, I once again say that I get what the intent was, I just wasn't feeling it
StC was developed around the same time and it had far more game elements than SatAM. It had the game environments, South Island, the Death Egg, the Chaos Emeralds, the Tornado, Mecha Sonic...
It also had less original characters, and didn't shove Tails into the background. And it kept adding game characters and elements as they were introduced, while SatAM deliberately ignored the games as Ben Hurst admitted.
It also used those elements in completely different ways than they were in the games soooo.
Aside from Super Sonic, how so?
Chaos, the aforementioned Super Sonic, the Chaotix don't really resemble their character descriptions at all, Porker Lewis and Johnny Lightfoot are essentially in the same category as Sally Acorn given they're all characters based on the animals Sonic saves, Robotnik is played seriously just like his SATAM counterpart, among many other things.
Yes, STC superficially resembles the games more, but they're utilized in a way that makes them more or less original creations all of their own. If you wanna count that as a mark in favor of STC over SATAM, be my guest but personally I don't care for how much an adaptation resembles the source material and more how those elements work on their own.
Weird how some or you are saying that cartoons that were being made in 1992 (SatAM, AoStH too) would have for some reason had characters like Amy in them, a game from 1993. Let alone characters like Knuckles and the like.
But that's exactly what made it good IMO. Otherwise, your creativity can be boxed into a corner. I was fine with them making it more of a realistic environment loosely based on the games. There was some excellent story telling (certainly in the Ben Hurst episodes) that couldn't have been possible if it had to be like the games.
I do admit to wishing for a bit more of the games in there, like an appearance by Knuckles (which apparently would have been planned for a future episode), as well as some levels from the games. But I feel it would have allowed for more of that had the series been allowed to continue. They sort of worked Spinball in there in season two as well as a floating island.
SATAM wasn't *that* meticulously planned, it was fairly episodic. They could've definitely worked in more game elements for Season 2 but instead added characters like Dulcy. Not to mention that right from the start Tails was sidelined for other OCs. I agree that roasting SATAM for not having Amy, Knuckles, etc right from the start is pretty silly but all accounts (including what we've seen of Season 3 notes) indicate that it was largely gonna keep doing its own thing without paying much attention to the games. And at that point we're just arguing over SATAM's quality on its own merits, not as an adaptation.
And tbf, I don't think SATAM's mindset was entirely wrong. Penders once pointed out that Archie Sonic was the longest lasting video game comic and attributes that to it trying to be its own thing. He says a lot of stupid shit but I actually think he's correct. If the conditions were there, then maybe SATAM could've found similar success. But that's just speculation.
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