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Sonic's Attitude in Sonic the Comic

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Adamis, Jul 18, 2022.

  1. kitsunebi

    kitsunebi

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    • Tails is clever and resourceful and totally loyal to Sonic, no matter how thoughtlessly Sonic treats him. Sonic doesn't appreciates Tails' abilities but the little fox never complains and continues to look up to him. The reader should always be aware that Tails is really competent and brave and feel sympathy with him when Sonic is unappreciative, which he always is.
    Like I just said, Sonic is a terrible friend, by design, apparently. And poor Tails, whose lot in life is to be abused and unappreciated, but to somehow love Sonic for it anyway. Classic abuser/abused relationship.

    Unrelated to Sonic's attitude, but I figure this is the place to ask: I was surprised when I first read StC to see the character Porker Lewis. I remember liking "Parker Lewis Can't Lose" as a kid, but I would have never expected it to have been known in the UK. Was that show actually popular there, or was it something obscure that went over most readers' heads?
     
  2. Linkabel

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    I don't want to derail the thread, but has anyone asked what was the plans with the mystery of Knuckles, Dr. Zachary and what exactly happened with the echidnas?

    I know Kitching mentioned the unused plan with Zachary and the Echidna criminals gang. But I was always curious if there was something concrete and what happened with the remaining echidnas were enslaved and why Knuckles was in suspended animation?

    This should just honestly turn into the STC general thread.
     
  3. E-122-Psi

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    From what I remember Porker Lewis was a name taken from early US material renaming all the animal characters (this is also where the name Sally Acorn derived from and why the Ricky character that appears in the earliest comics is called such). I don't really remember Parker Lewis being very iconic in the UK but I was young, I think it was just a case of them taking what supplementary material they had about Sonic, regardless of knowing the reference. Kinda similar to if they adapted the Death Egg or Super Sonic without knowing anything about Star Wars or Dragonball.
     
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  4. I find this fascinating and certainly colors the different reactions we're seeing here. Looking at it from a British perspective, I can see why Sonic's abrasiveness would appeal to that crowd. This isn't saying saying one's way of doing things in inherently more "correct". Me personally, I generally prefer the Japanese-themed Sonic from the mid-2000's, but that version usually gets written off as "boring" by everyone else lol.

    So its certainly fascinating to see how different cultures interpret what it means to be a hero through the lens of Sonic. Sonic's American characterization is generally the most popular internationally, so I can see why a majority of people gravitate towards it.
     
  5. BlackHole

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    Well, he also points out Blackadder and a few other comedies. They often show a sardonic, jerkish person who is none the less a good person.



    Baldrick: "'cos I won't ever shoot myself."
    Blackadder: "Oh, shame."

    You can look at Blackadder's dialogue and very easily adapt it to Sonic in Sonic the Comic.

    Amy: "'cos I won't ever shoot myself."
    Sonic: "Oh, shame."

    Meanwhile, in another episode:

    Blackadder: "For God's sake, Baldrick! Take cover!"
    Baldrick: "Why's that, sir?"
    Blackadder: "Because there's an air raid going on! And I don't want to have to write to your mother at London Zoo and tell her that her only human child is dead!"

    When it ultimately comes down to it, he will look out for them, even if he still takes a dig at him.

    Sonic is ultimately the same. He's a jerk, sarcastic and taking shots at his friends all the time, but push comes to shove and he'll throw himself into the line of fire first to try and keep his friends safe. It's just how the British like them: sarcastic assholes, but sarcastic assholes who'll do the right thing.
     
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  6. kitsunebi

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    It's interesting, because while I can see and appreciate such humor in a sitcom, I don't see any humor in Sonic's attitude in StC. Maybe that's just because it isn't well written enough to actually be witty. Many sitcoms have a character who bears the brunt of a lot of the jokes - in many cases, that's their primary purpose, and I have no problem with that. I love Jerry/Garry on Parks and Recreation, but if the character existed in real life and not a sitcom, he would be quite tragic. StC obviously isn't real life, but I've always read Sonic comics as adventure stories, not sitcoms (well, outside of the early Archies, anyway), so my mind can't reconcile placing the characters into sitcom-like roles.

    In your above examples, I could totally accept those lines of dialogue if they were between Sonic and Robotnik. But they still seem unjustifiably mean when delivered to his friends.
     
  7. BlackHole

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    Or simply because it's not a sitcom. It's something I bring up on the Continuity Thread a lot, but context is a very important thing. In this instance, you associate that type of humour with sitcoms.

    Meanwhile, in Britain:


    This isn't a sitcom, it's a comedy, but the second they smell blood in the water to mock Stephen's poshness, they all go for it. Insults are literally comedy to us.

    (Warning, Not Safe for Work jokes)


    I mean, how many people do you know who can basically get called a w***e and laugh at it?

    It's just kind of how we are. The context is that our sense of humour finds insults and mockery funny. Ever heard of Bottom? Two narcissist, perverted gits insulting and beating the crap out of one another, and often times they'll turn an insult the audience in their live shows.

    More NSFW jokes:
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2022
  8. E-122-Psi

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    In fairness though, only the fourth Blackadder was remotely caring. :P

    I also feel like the difference there is that Blackadder is surrounded by enough stupid or inconsiderate asses to justify his insults or temprament, hence why they often feel like witty punchlines to one of their stupid episodes. STC Sonic had the problem of only having that when he was allied with one shots or other abrasive mainstays like Knuckles or the Chaotix, Tails and Porker were doormats but not exceptionally stupid and Johnny and Amy were fairly normal and well mannered (Amy was SUPPOSED to be infuriating, a character that actually teased Sonic for kicks in fact, but executives nixed that). As such it too often comes down to Sonic just making bullying remarks to his genial teammates who just kinda take it. It's not even along the lines of pub insults like above since most of the time they just seem uncomfortable and rather thin skinned about Sonic's nasty jabs at them, rarely dishing any back.

    It feels rather similar to SatAm and Archie in fact where Sonic is actually usually THE most flawed and dysfunctional of the main group by far, just they dialled Sonic's bad attitude up to eleven while failing to give any sort of worthy opponent like Sally who would dish back the abuse. I'm not really big on how later SatAm turned Sonic into basically a manchild among a bunch of sensible adults whose overconfidence kept biting him, but it at least felt a balance of his nastier qualities, STC didn't have much taking his imperious attitude down a notch.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2022
  9. I do think that Sonic being an action-adventure story makes a huge difference here. Sonic isn't a sitcom, and using a style of writing more akin to it for Sonic has never really felt right. Sure, it might be funny more often than not, but that doesn't necessarily make it right.

    I'm sure the StC writers had nothing but good intentions when writing and they can't really account for an international audience. And its clear by some of the comments here that this specific incarnation has resonated with people as any version of Sonic does.
     
  10. kitsunebi

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    I think there's some sort of misunderstanding here that Americans can't understand or appreciate acerbic British humor, which simply isn't true. But the key word there is HUMOR. There's a world of difference between saying something mean because it's funny, and saying something that's just mean-spirited. The problem I have is that I see no HUMOR in StC, only a character who treats his friends like crap. If his insults were clever and funny, or if the other characters were able to laugh them off and freely trade off their own insults aimed at Sonic as well, maybe I'd be able to see it as friendly banter and not douchebaggery.
     
  11. E-122-Psi

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    I think it's generally why the comics worked better when Sonic was stuck with another jerk like Knuckles Someone who dished it back and actually did things to earn his mean attitude.

    I don't remember a lot of Sonic and Knuckles' banter being witty either but at least there was humour in how childishly petty they were with each other. I remember one instance they almost let a villain get away because they're stuck in a sort of "Oh yeah?" "YEAH!" type argument, which is only solved by Knuckles conviniently decking Sonic onto the guy. The two clods deserved each other.
     
  12. BlackHole

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    Actually, I'm pointing out the context. It is funny... to Sonic.

    [​IMG]

    "Hey, just kidding, little buddy!"
    "Porker Lewis is right, you do have a weird sense of humour!"

    To Sonic, it's a lark, a carry on, etc. As I've pointed out, it's common British humour to insult others, especially friends, and be morbid.

    In sheer irony as well:

    the two character who don't get the joke and find it weird, Tails and Porker, aren't Mobius natives. Porker hails from the Special Zone after fleeing his life as a criminal there, and Tails is from the Nameless Zone, a different dimension.
     
  13. kitsunebi

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    Exactly. Sonic and Knuckles works because there's already a layer of antagonism at the foundation of their relationship. And both characters are presented as strong-willed enough that we find it hard to believe either one would have their feelings hurt by any insults the other might toss at them.

    But a lot of Sonic's friends are much more wholesome/good-natured. The type of characters who would never use insults as a means of communication. So it becomes a one-way exchange with Sonic treating them like a punching bag. Unlike all of the videos posted above, it isn't done in a humorous fashion, and Sonic's friends are not shown to be "in on the joke." Roasting one's friends is fine when "poking fun" in a good-natured way. But if you're insulting your friends and they don't seem the least bit amused - you're not poking fun, you're being mean.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2022
  14. That's kind of why it sorta works better in Archie/SATAM early on towards Antoine. Sure Sonic could be seen as mean towards Antoine...but let's not forget that Antoine was originally a coward, yet still tried to make a big deal out of himself. Small name, Big ego basically. It made him a prime target for Sonic's antics and Sally could give back as much as she took.

    Its why in the games, Sonic's snarky wit is generally directed at his rivals or enemies, people who antagonize him as opposed to his friends.

    That's why it doesn't really work in StC, because most of his comments are directed at Tails who doesn't really do anything to deserve it most of the time.

    The intent is probably because Tails was seen as an annoyance by gamers who would hinder your progress in Sonic 2, not unlike actual younger siblings in real life. Sonic's attitude reflects how many readers felt about Tails at the time probably. But here's the thing, Tails is not supposed to be annoying and treating him like he is, is frankly, a dick move.


    Like I said, I get the intent but I think the reason StC!Sonic gets as much flak cuz it kind of misses the point of Sonic's attitude and his relationship with Tails. Sonic gives snark to people who deserve it and can take it but he's much more patient with Tails because that's his younger brother figure and he's more tolerant of him even if he's a detriment at times.
     
  15. E-122-Psi

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    I think SatAm started alright with Antoine vs Sonic since early Antoine was pompous and insulting himself and Sonic's insults were either playful or only giving as good as he got. By the second season however, Antoine became too dumb to really fight back, and Sonic instantly jolted into STC levels of contempt whenever Antoine so much as breathed too loudly. Like in one episode Sonic straight faced REFUSES to save Antoine when he gets captured until Sally points out the pragmatic issues against that, I don't think even STC considered doing that to any comrades, even ones he got on badly with. Not sincerely anyway.

    It sort of slipped into the same issue where it became less a two way rivalry with an even bigger jerk to just Sonic basically slipping into bullying jock territory, perpetually sneering "Ewwww, check out that loser, ain't I way cooler than that guy?".
     
  16. There was a point in STC when Sonic flat out didn't want to save Charmy. He only relented because his conscience wouldn't let him, but he internally notes how much he doesn't want to help him.

    Yea, writers really often used Sonic as a mouthpiece to voice their displeasure for certain characters.

    Neither Charmy or Antoine were that popular, so it was ok if Sonic treated them like crap because "they were annoying".
     
  17. Aesculapius Piranha

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    I'd like to give it more of a read before I comment thoroughly but this idea you have to be polite all the time to everyone you associate with is more en vogue these days than it was back when StC was written, and frankly there is a fine line between someone who isn't a milquetoast and is full of themselves and an being an abusive jerk as some are painting him. It sounds like they wrote Sonic as a hothead and not someone who is actively looking to beat people down for fun and to satiate his own ego. It sounds like unnecessary demonization due to current trends and this is reflected by the idea that a more current comic has been written where he doesn't like where he used to act. And believe it or not that is kind of how maturity works. There are lots of people even in this community who LOVED to talk shit to their friends in the early 2000s and it wasn't always nice and where everyone was in on it, but that is normal? People grew up. Some faster than others. We aren't robots, and a lot of 'polite' conversation has the same energy of the kind where labels and angry words are used. But this is turning into a philosophic rant and I don't want to turn this into a bigger picture debate. Nobody can argue that insulting your friends isn't bad behavior, but Sonic disliking some of his friends and being nicer to some than others doesn't sound like it is anything character-breaking. The poster above me pointed out Antoine and in both SatAM and Archie Sonic was a tool to Antoine because Antoine was a stuffy unlikable character who was afraid of his own shadow and written a bit as a punching bag/Meg. Is it nice? No. Is it relatable because the character isn't that likable to begin with? Yes. Are there better ways of writing Sonic to be 'cool,' 'having attitude,' and 'above it all?' Yeah sure, but those attitudes are always changing.

    One way or another It is okay to not like how a character is written so I think that is as far as I will take the rant until I actually read it. For all I know I will think he is a psycho, but I honestly think I am just going to see a character who doesn't take crap and doesn't need everyone's approval, and that is more than okay.
     
  18. E-122-Psi

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    I guess that's the difference though, STC didn't want to but his consience clearly put a limit there.

    SatAm sincerely refused to save Antoine and only relented because Sally pointed out repurcussions due to him having a power ring with him.

    Both make clear they don't like the guy and don't really WANT to help them, but only one feels like they genuinely couldn't cross that line because of ethical limits, and ironically that one was STC Sonic.
     
  19. Yea, the recent pushback is generally due to hindsight. It was fine when we were children because of course we like seeing characters we don't like suffer, even if they don't necessarily deserve it. Cuz children are fucking sociopaths (I know because I work with them :V).

    But its only looking back when you start to understand how messed up that behavior is. Sure, it's harmless in the grand scheme of things, but mocking people you don't like who are in a lesser position than you isn't exactly an admirable trait. Not that we adults don't indulge in that cuz we're a bunch of cynical assholes who have no patience for people. And its easy to bleed that mentality into things we write.


    I'm not saying how Sonic is written is that he's a sociopathic monster who hates his friends. But maybe making the protagonist of a children's series about friendship actively dislike the people he's protecting isn't sending the best message to the children as a role model.
     
  20. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

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    I'd still say Archie was worse than SatAM, because right out of the gate Sonic is shitting on Antoine no matter what, and more often than not the writers forget to have Antoine even display any negative traits, much less do anything bad enough to invite Sonic's abuse. The guy was almost always a selfish liability in SatAM, but by issue 10 at the absolute earliest, Antoine is objectively a hero with the Freedom Fighters' best interests in mind, and Sonic still treats him like a living joke, even though he's sympathetic to Tails, who's also a bit of an inexperienced fuckup when it comes to missions. Both Sonic Kids specials start with Sonic bullying Antoine, which implies that this is a pattern of behavior going back years.