Sonic X Shadow Generations thread, movie level out now

I recently revisited this (just replaying levels) and I just really love the level design here. I really hope they'll reiterate on specifically Shadow Generations' level design philosophy.

Space Colony Ark Act 1 alone is just a fantastic first level.

I definitely do want a cutscene skip button if they continue with those becoming more common within the levels themselves, though.

As far as story goes, I think it really is one of my favourite Sonic stories because it was so concise. To me it had just enough new substance where I finally started to see Maria and Gerald as characters, but also made me finally fully believe in Shadow as a character because it felt so sincere.

What ultimately made me like Shadow in SA2 was the sincere turn his character took by the end.

And almost everything past that, especially in the modern era (but also Shadow 05 for different reasons; I actually do kind of like what 06 did with him) didn't feel like it really understood this element of his character.

Edgy Hedgy isn't actually super edgy, ultimately just sad he lost everyone he cared about.

And as with every piece of media, the emotional resonence is pretty subjective. To me what we got was enough. Not too long-winded like 06, not too simple like OG Gens.

The dialogue between the key scenes was also effective enough to give additional depth. It just worked really well for me as this short but sweet package.

Basically, Shadow's simple sincere smile directed towards Maria at the end of the game said so much more than any line of dialog could to me.

 

Him calling Shadow his son didn't make me tear up I literally laughed out loud because how forced it was.

These are also still not new things we learned. Him calling him his son reiterated that they had a strong relationship before Gerald snapped...something we already knew.

A lot happens in the story, in terms of the amount of cutscenes, while at the same time very little because there was absolutely zero growth or change in the characters by the end. What kind of story is that? This isn't Seinfeld.

 

I liked that in Shadow Generations Shadow is given the opportunity to change the past and save Maria and Gerald but instead he grits his teeth and honors Gerald's wishes and doesn't alter history despite really wanting to and sheds a little tear at the end.

I don't really mind that the single tear is a Sonic Adventure 2 callback, or that Black Doom being the antagonist who is trying to convert Shadow is a Shadow 05 retread. It's Shadow Generations. It's a Generations game. Those are callback retread games by design.

 

Thank you for saying this because I never compared Sonic Generations story to Shadow Generations until now and it made me realize how much Sonic Generations did right compared to Shadow.

Shadow isn't given the opportunity to change the past and save Maria and Robotnik because he never considers it for a moment. It's not a choice he has to grapple with at all, because he's been long over both of them and nothing that happens in this game makes him feel otherwise. Maria naming Shadow doesn't recontextualize their relationship. Sonic having a fake fourth emerald for a part of generations doesn't change anything about that games story. Gerald calling Shadow son, doesn't change anything about how we viewed them because we already knew how close they were. There's absolutely 0 things of note or that actually change anything.

Sonic Generations on the other hand, is the first time that Classic Sonic was officially established as the adventures of Sonic and his friends when they were younger. We also learn why Robotnik started going under Eggman (time wimey stuff). We learn from this games bosses that Sonic has surpassed Perfect Chaos in terms of power, solely in his boost form now. We see Eggman take on a ancient monster and using the double intellect of himself ACTUALLY manages to capture it with no drawback (this literally never happened before until Sonic Generations). And in the final cutscene, we learn that Sonic learned the homing attack from himself (more timey wimey stuff).

These are all new events. This is all new information that vastly changes how we viewed previous story beats. When I'm playing 3 and Knuckles, in the back of my mind I'm thinking this is young Sonic. When I'm playing Adventure 1 and seeing Sonic use the Chaos Emeralds to take on Perfect Chaos, I know one day he'll be strong enough to handle this all on his own (like he told Infinite in Round 2, he's always getting stronger).

That's what a story is supposed to do, add new information while also recontextualizing older information in new and fascinating ways.

When I'm playing Sonic Adventure 2, not once does Maria naming Shadow ever come to my mind. In no way does that change anything about their relationship. It's not like Shadow began to detest his name, and then Maria, at his lowest point, tells him she named him. Then her explanation on his name gives Shadow the power to move forward.

It does nothing to move the series lore forward in any meaningful way and he reacts in the same way I did. Indifference.

 

I don't know what to tell you bud - Shadow the Hedgehog didn't really have Shadow come to terms with his past so much as commit to repressing it - the canon ending to the game just has him ignore literally everything and say "My past doesn't matter to me. ThIs Is WhO i Am!". Generations meanwhile has him actually find some resolve and purpose in fighting for Maria's wish while also getting closure and validation from a sane Gerald that he was seen as more than a weapon or experiment (when most on the Ark didn't see him as such) and wasn't always just a pawn in Gerald's deranged revenge scheme concocted by a broken mind on death row. The way you're arguing, you could say literally nothing in this series has ever mattered at all. Meeting Knuckles doesn't bring anything new to Sonic! Eggman learning about Gerald does nothing to change him in future games! Sonic doesn't keep the Werehog transformation so what was the point of any of Unleashed????"

 

That's simply not true.



15:52, during the first cutscene where Shadow meets up with Maria and Gerald:
Shadow: "They must be from a point in time before the ARK disaster. Perhaps I can change their fate."
Maria: "Shadow? You look grim. Are you all right?"
Shadow: "I'll be fine. We'll all be fine. Find somewhere safe to hide. I'll take care of everything."

A player who has watched this cutscene will know that going forward, Shadow is hoping to change their fates.

Through to the end, even:

37:48, during the cutscene where Maria and Gerald disappear:
Shadow: "Professor! What's happening?"
Gerald: "Without Black Doom's influence, the time anomaly is beginning to heal. We are returning to our own point in time."
Shadow: "I'll stop Rouge! Use Chaos Control! Stop this moment in time and...!"
Maria: "Shadow...no. We don't want to be frozen in one place in time. Besides, your friends need your help."
Shadow: "But you don't know what's going to happen!"
Maria: "I know I'll see you again. And if fate draws us apart, I will always be in your heart."
Shadow: "Maria..."
Shadow: "Wait...!"

Shadow does not want them to return to their time, because they will die, and Shadow does not want them to die. For them not to die would be to change the past. If you watch the cutscenes alone, it is clear that Shadow wants to change Maria and Gerald's fate until the very last moment, but presumably Maria's words help convince him to let go.

This is just what's happening in the cutscenes, though. You can also talk to characters in the hub world. Of course, not everyone is going to care about talking to characters in a hub world. I understand. Not everyone plays video games for the story. If you are interested in a video game's story, I'm not sure why you wouldn't be talking to NPCs when given the opportunity, though. I was interested in this game's story, and so I talked to all of the NPCs in the hub world every chance I could get. Talking to Gerald in the hub world, particularly between these two cutscenes, is pretty illuminating.



1:45:
Gerald: "I can tell you're desperate to tell me something. I beg you - don't tell me anything. We must not pollute the time stream. If we can resolve this crisis, we will return from whence we came. Space-time will settle and shift back into place, like rippling water becoming calm again. Whatever will be, whatever has been, must remain intact."
Gerald: "What's that? You're acquainted with a time-traveler? Well...I cannot account for his actions. All I can do is advise you as I always have. Concentrate on solving the crisis at hand. I'll look after Maria. We'll deal with the rest as it comes."
Gerald: "You're still not convinced about changing your destiny, mm? Think of it this way - if you changed our past, it would rewrite your future. All your triumphs, all you've learned, all the good you have done would cease to be. What will be, will be. Although...that is something I struggle with myself sometimes, if I'm being honest."

So, Gerald surmises that Shadow wants to tell Gerald something that will change the past, and begs him not to. Importantly, despite repeatedly pushing back against what Gerald is saying (such as by bringing up Silver, apparently), Shadow still isn't telling Gerald what happens. That makes it seem like he's genuinely conflicted: he wants to, but they want him not to, so he isn't, but he's still trying to get them to agree to hear it. If all he cared about was saving them, he'd just tell them. But since they don't want to hear it, he isn't, indicating that he's also respectful of their wishes.

That final cutscene hits different if you've been talking to Gerald. Putting them together, it's clear that despite Gerald's arguments, Shadow still wanted to prevent them from dying up until the very end, but he ultimately does not say anything that would change the past. Reading between the lines, it seems like Maria's last words to him here got through to him where Gerald's didn't.

Would it have been better if Shadow and Gerald arguing about this was presented in a cutscene, so it wouldn't have been easy for players to miss? Yeah, absolutely. But it is there. And I talked to Gerald, which made the final cutscene better for me.

---

tl;dr: Shadow really wants to change their past but respects their wishes instead. It was clearly not easy for him to do. That's cool. I like it. You don't have to like it or think it's anything worth noting, but it's there. Simple as.

 

In the same way you ignored my literal paragraphs giving all the ways that Sonic Generations did evolve the story and lore of the series while claiming I think nothing in the series matters, I will ignore what you wrote.

Hey thanks for fixing my information. By the end of the story I still leave feeling no differently about Shadow's relationship with Maria or Gerald because by the end we still learn nothing new about them that recontexualizes previous information.

I still believe this doesn't change anything or add anything new to the series' lore but I respect your post.

 

No I just recognise your blatant cherry picking for what it is and choose not to dignify it. Apparently I have nothing better to do with my time though, so just to canter through: We already knew that Robotnik switched to Eggman to own the libs Sonic (Generations is something of a retcon here, though in an in-universe sense). Sonic being stronger than Perfect Chaos now is a laughable example of some revolutionary storytelling in a series that doesn't really concern itself with powerscaling. They wanted to remix and revisit the Perfect Chaos fight and wanted to do it with regular Sonic, that's all there is to it - it wasn't even acknowledged in Generations that Sonic had particularly surpassed himself and you could rationalise it in another way (for example, Sonic went Super the first time specifically because Chaos had to be pacified to break the cycle of violence, as he states in Adventure; in Generations, Chaos is just an obstacle to be bypassed so calming him down wouldn't be a factor). The line about getting stronger all the time is there because the plot needs to happen, and the plot is that Sonic loses to Infinite until he doesn't. That's literally all there is to it. Sonic learning the homing attack from himself changes sweet dick all about anything.

I don't even dislike any of these examples as events that are happening, I just think it's extremely unconvincing to argue that these are meaningful character developments, yet Shadow getting closure with Gerald and Maria while reaffirming his reason to fight without it being on anyone else's terms aren't. It's outright contrarianism.

 

Yeah I find using regular Sonic being able to beat Perfect Chaos a rather big stretch to use as an example of any kind of story. Under that logic you could say Shadow undergoes the same story with Metal Overlord because in Heroes he had to be beaten in Super form with the help of two others.

 

I actually HAVE seen people make the argument that modern Shadow must be much stronger than (Heroes) super sonic on account of beating him without a super form and without any help.

I think its a cute little inference people can make, cause unlike perfect chaos there really *isnt* an excuse other than just, gameplay, for metal overlord to need to be pacified or purified or whatever.

If anything it kinda makes metal overlord look like a pushover

 

Well, we both know the bosses aren't random events. They're canon interactions that happened with these characters. So no matter how you mince words, Modern Sonic defeated Perfect Chaos without super form or any help. He needed support to even defeat Chaos 6. There's no implication in SA1 that he could have defeated Perfect Chaos without the emeralds or that he couldn't talk it out with him after the fight was over, unless he used the emeralds.

If you want to ignore the homing attack event, we can. But establishing Classic Sonic as past Sonic is a huge deal and major piece of information that recontexualizes dozens of games. A story doesn't have to change everything but by the end the world should feel a little more interesting.

I liked the idea of Maria and Gerald being brought back for a new story. I was excited to see what we got to learn about them that we didn't before and how it would change how I felt about previous titles. Only to feel like we went in circles.

If you liked the story for Shadow Generations that's fine. If you don't need the story to move the characters forward in a substantial way and you were just happy seeing two fan favorites again, that's great.

I just didn't like the execution at all. Spider-Man #500 did a similar idea with letting Peter meet Uncle Ben for five minutes in his adult life (Uncle Ben being the only character in comics to stay dead), as a reward for saving the multiverse. Peter got to finally to him about all his experiences as Spider-Man. And Peter finally gets asked "Are you happy?" for the first time in his adult life and he looks at his life and experiences and for the first time, feels content.

I bring this up because it was a very similar idea that I feel had better execution because Peter never had gotten closure or truly moved on from Uncle Ben. Art is an expression of human experiences so wires should cross in terms of ideas at times. And it was satisfying seeing them together.

I feel like Shadow had fulfilled Maria's wish substantially and I feel he had long forgiven Gerald after Shadow 05. However I see there were fans of the story so I won't say it didn't do anything right. It just wasn't executed as well as I wish it was for me.

 

Maybe it is not the characters that disappoint, but the impression we get of their lives on the ARK. Omega and Rouge build a contrast to Gerald and Maria. Only they know what Shadow went through whereas Gerald and Maria don't. The bottom line could be interpreted as "life on the ARK sucked, Shadow only doesn't know it. He should be lucky to have found new buddies instead of living in the past so much." Then again, who says he does?

 

I will take this opportunity to say that while we're talking about Perfect Chaos, I think its Gens design sucks, there's too much green in it, and the mural and statues and motifs in the Mystic Ruins and Lost World clearly depicts him as a snake instead of some big blob monster with a godzilla head.

 

That's an opinion I've never heard before. I thought the Gens design was awesome. Much better than the derpy thing we got in SA1.

 

The Gens design was what was intended all along in SA1, we even see it in the concept art.

Supposedly it was simplified due to hardware limitations (I'm sure a workaround could've been done with 2 models, but I'm only a Mega Drive dev so idk)
So to say the Gens/concept art design is worse is quite a take.

 

I mean, intent doesn't determine better or worse, outcome does. Personally I think the Concept/Generations one is cool, but it having actual scales with a dark pigment kinda diminishes the idea that it is a beast made of water.

 

Why is that "quite a take"? It's just a preference thing. I much prefer the almost entire liquid design of the original than the shell hood slapped on top of it and the ridiculous green glow. The original intention doesn't change what I liked about what was in the final release.

 

Im actually in between myself, I think the scales look really good on perfect chaos but i think all the green energy is overdoing it. I think i'd also prefer if the scales were also more clearly meant to be water, instead of looking like a solid shell/helmet sort of thing

 

I prefer the Gens version myself. I think the darker blue is very much necessary for breaking up the shapes and informing the form and volume while making the whole thing feel more in the vein of established kaiju. Green energy is fine by me too, I think the whole bag is pretty much a straight upgrade.

 

I could go either way, I like the original concept for Perfect Chaos but maybe they kind of went overboard with the scales/armour in Gens. It'd be cool to see a reworked model that brings it slightly closer to what the original look was going for