Sonic X Shadow Generations thread, movie level out now

"style" is of course not going to be an objective measurement, and it's of course totally valid to disagree with the vision of intended play that the developers are presenting - for an on-topic example, i use spear-gliding in shadow gens all the time, even though that's obviously unintended and also looks kind of silly, but i think it makes the game much more fun and engaging. i also often kill more enemies and interact with more level objects than necessary, simply because i prefer how the game looks and feels when i do so - which is exactly the reason why i prefer sa2's ranking system, because it is more in-line with my subjective preferences on that front.

i also agree that there's a perverse way where low ranks can feel like a badge of honor - i fondly remember taking pride in many a bayonetta stone trophy while learning the game, because i felt it was a representation of the struggle and effort i had to go through. additionally, in high-level play of spectacle fighters, you'll often see combo videos do things that are technically sub-optimal in the eyes of the in-game score system but are subjectively cooler or more stylish for the purposes of the combo they're creating. i don't think any of this invalidates the value of graded rankings - unless you're donguri level in dmc or katie4 level in sa2, the ranking systems in those games are pretty good at measuring whether you're engaging with all the game's mechanics in a masterful way, and that's what those systems are there to encourage you to do. the fact that it is occasionally the case that the struggle of a low-rank run is more gratifying than a perfect one doesn't change that.

designing any kind of ranking system requires the devs to make value judgements about what ideal play looks like, and they're obviously (1) not going to be able to consider all the edge cases and (2) not going to align with the aesthetic preferences of every player. that's totally fine, in my view. i often disagree with sonic team about what "ideal" sonic should look like in many different respects, as do most of us here - that's why we've spent nearly a thousand pages discussing the matter.

 

Very disappointing news from the SEGA Asia team regarding Movie Shadow and the extra levels.
Playable exclusively in English (so it'll just use the same lines no matter the language), skin usable exclusively in the "Acts and challenge acts" added by the DLC, and there will also be no leaderboard support.

The second part is probably the most upsetting/ confusing, because you would be under the impression that it uses the existing skin system in some way, but apparently not. If I was a tiny bit more cynical I'd call it false advertising for the existing Digital Deluxe edition purchases.

 

Substitute whatever terminology you want, I don't really care if I've properly laid out a description that personally satisfies you. The point is that it doesn't feel conducive to a Sonic game, even if it might to a different kind of game.

 

You sure are quick to demand respect, yet slow to offer it

 

Wonder Boy in Monster Land is a great example of an extremely linear A to B adventure style game (it's literally called Adventure Island in some ports) where score is front and center matters. That's because your Score is basically your EXP in the game, and you only have one life throughout the entire game, and the score is how you earn extra hearts. So you play the game very explicitly looking for ways to maximize your score, because doing so extends the amount of time you can play the game, which mattered a ton in arcade games. So like, doing stuff like fighting the krakken boss twice in round 4 with full health so you get the triple score bonus, which can net you an extra heart a couple of rounds early in the game. I very much pay attention to score in Wonder Boy, and I look for ways to do as many extra challenges as possible to increase it.

 

These are not dissimilar types of games though, is the point. They are both linear action games that have their roots planted firmly in the arcade. I chose Bayonetta because it often goes as far as to pay homage to other titles in Sega's catalogue in its narrative and mechanics. You have failed to explain why ranks could be conductive for one game and not the other.

Unless "immersion" has truthfully just meant "mechanics that have personally irked me" this whole time in which case immersion was a poor word choice you could have saved time by disavowing.

 

Ranks should be in every Sonic game and do nothing but add replay value to the game they’re in.

How tf did we get on this conversation???

 

I do get what the value of a standardized, objective ranking system can be, but at the same time the examples you gave do illustrate that when you apply them, and their only purpose is to grade you, they aren't encouraging you to master the game mechanics in a general sense -- they're encouraging you to master the game in a specific way. The edge cases of any method we do talk about, like the one for the classic games you mentioned, do illustrate how the way the developers intended to acknowledge, recognize and reward skill is mostly arbitrary, and will generate strategies to master that, not mechanics in their broadest possible sense. In fact, any kind of measurement inherently does that. Score alone, recognized or not, can make it so that skill is directed to get more score.

So yeah, I think ranking systems for stages whose only purpose is to make you feel like you can do better can be a useful tool. I think humans are well capable of suspending their disbelief and accepting game logics to an extraordinary extent, and create stories from that. But grading systems are not particularly better at that, or more (or less) "conducive to Sonic gameplay" than like. A score leaderboard at the end of the game, like shmups do have; arbitrary achievements like basically every game nowadays does; or even just tying any measurement to new content until it's only up to you to complete it or not.

ZeroRanger is basically a treatise on this, and an incredible game too. At first you'll play for score, even at the expense of your progress, but only because you need it to get more continues so you can actually reach the final boss, which will require you to stop playing for score and instead focus on survival. But then, the game turns over its head in a way I don't think I want to spoil but that I promise is fantastic, and changes how you view the way everything was measured before. It knows it's manipulating you into becoming better at one aspect or the other, and knows what you're attached to.

 

I can't wait to listen to Kouji Yusa being replaced by Keanu Reeves in real time

 

You said yourself that my description was too broad. Maybe I don't have the language to fully communicate what the kind of game Sonic is such that showing off the player's rank in campaign mode feels stupid to me, but that doesn't make it objectively incorrect to say it feels stupid.

I bounced right off DMC 1 because of how the combo inputs felt, and I haven't played many spectacle fighters in general, so I don't feel confident judging the comparison. If I must point to something that jumps out, it'd be that the dichotomy in Sonic is spending the first playthrough exploring and learning a broadly-designed stage, looking for secrets and side paths, but spending challenge replays ignoring that unless it gives a bonus to time or score. It's almost like campaigns are practice, it's why doppelganger races in Generations remove red rings (not saying I agree with that tho). If it's assumed you won't do well on a first playthrough because you're busy with stuff other than getting the best score, then it's weird to dunk the player for not doing it anyway (though as mentioned it shouldn't stop the player from ranking if they do perform well on first try).

By contrast, most of these character action games don't really come across as being about the environment the way Sonic usually is. It's much more in-the-moment from the word 'go', and I'll say that while I don't really want the pressure, having a HUD indicator in a Sonic stage showing the player's current rank is a welcome change from those games. Like I said before, the problem is sending mixed messages, and that is more communicative, even if I don't like it. It's because when I play these games, Sonic is only "about scoring" once I've already done the part that's about the adventure, and adventures aren't about doing everything perfectly flawlessly, in my experience. That's the part they actually sell the game on, that's where all the time and effort go in, so that's the part that gets priority in my mind.

Though all that being said, I don't think it's actually necessary to explain all this. Different things are right and wrong for different-feeling video games. There are ways you could present this well or poorly in games that are infinitely more similar to Sonic, because those games still have enough differences from the outset that every other decision you make will have an effect. I don't know what other words I can use for something feeling like it keeps me in the game I'm playing and something that takes me out of that game than "immersion" and "disruption". It's not only the annoyance, there are plenty of annoying design choices in Sonic that just make me grit my teeth and grip the controller harder.

 

The first part makes sense as the big selling point of the DLC is that its voiced by international sensation Keanu. Stranger in a strange world. The second part sucks though as I wanted to run around in White Space grunting as Keanu.

 

I can sympathize a lot with the sentiment, and I even agree with you completely when you say the feeling of an adventure is different from the feeling of doing things perfectly. I agree a lot with the part about the mixed messaging too. But I think you could argue that from Sonic Adventure 2 on, Sonic shifted away from being about the environment to being about these sequences of moments from which ranking systems benefit the most. It's not a coincidence that it's when ranks started being used at all!

Also, I think we shouldn't take immersion as inherently good either. Disruption is a narrative or a game design technique like any other! Yes, I think it is disruptive to have a whole ass sequence of Sonic doing break dance to his numbers saying how cool he was in Kingdom Valley right before Elise fucking dies and he gets all sad about it, but I don't think this disruption is inherently bad. This isn't really useful, I'm just. Pointing it out.

Anyway we might as well have a thread just for this because it's really interesting but it isn't exactly about ShGens anymore, is it?

 

Sure, there are indeed ways a Sonic game takes the reins that shouldn't be messed with because they would cause way bigger problems than ranking. This is just the version of it that I think sucks.

Anyway we don't need a whole separate thread, because I'm cool to shut the fuck up about this entirely at this point. None of this was really what I expected when I said "it's good that Lost World makes ranking optional".

 

I don't think you should try so hard to feel out the design language of games you've never played. Devil May Cry as a series isn't about the environment but it was a big part of the early games. The Wonderful 101 is practically half a platformer with how many secrets and movement challenges it crams in. I presented "spectacle fighters"(action games) because they truly are similar. If you were to say "I haven't played this game but would against a performance vibe check on my first playthrough on the whole for any skill based action game like this" that would genuinely be a more consistent and respectable than trying to argue that NiGHTS into Dreams is less about immersion than Sonic Heroes. I'd disagree with your but it would be easier to leave it there. Devil May Cry's harsh, teasing ranking system is a genuine sore spot to first timers, even if I'd never agree with taking out on the first playthrough.

But yeah, the first timer argument is not a terrible one to make. Much easier to upload too. It's when you try to argue that it should be the case for Sonic only that the holes start to pop up.

 

The rankings are just there to encourage you to replay levels and optimize for score. I think the per-rank reactions are cute and in no way insulting.
In some sense, I think there’s a healthy level of bonding with the fictional character when they’re also frustrated at not doing that great. The whole gameplay selling point is to make you feel cool and stylish, doing well by going fast and not getting hit, so ranking by points is a decent approximation of that.

 

Yeah. It is fun to see how the different characters react to their performances being graded. Like, it is your performance, but it is theirs too, because you are them. Bonding is a good word for it.

 

It's also interesting that the SA2 rank quotes that are being discussed here ARE much more relevant to the narrative than in later games. "Barely made it", "I guess I'm not at full power, here", "That was too close", these are the characters remarking on how that last mission was pretty rough, and they barely survived, more so than being upset about a poor rating. Compare that to say, Unleashed, where Sonic literally looks at the score being tallied and then falls to his knees in despair when he sees the E rank.

 

Finally managed to S Rank Radical Highway Act 2 without Doom Wings, the last thing I had left to complete! Turns out I could already do each section well enough to S Rank it, I just had to make sure I strung it all together without making any small mistakes, haha! The game really rewards you figuring out how to use Shadow's abilities to help skip over some of the slower/fiddlier moments, or even to shave off a couple of extra seconds by skipping over automated sequences (e.g. jumping off the side of the big loop before the spring tower rather than running through it).

Still can't do those weird Chaos Spear glides I've seen other people doing - I'm obviously not doing it at the right moment or something - so I'm especially happy to have managed to S Rank everything without that to aid me...!

Overall a great game, and brought more challenge compared to Sonic Generations which was very much appreciated. Give me a sequel that's a full game's length and actually conserves momentum when you jump/boost/etc and I'd snap it up with no hesitation. A few different hubs with all the platforming/challenges etc of White Space, but in actual locations in the game's world (think a fusion between White Space and Adventure Fields) wouldn't go amiss either.

Looking forward to the DLC later this week, will be nice to have a couple more Acts and a few more Challenges to tackle! = )

 

I'll be totally honest, I've been confused by everyone struggling to S rank Radical Highway without the wings. It only took me like 2 attempts.

 

Also, seems like my game updated today on Switch - I'm guessing it's just a compatibility update in advance of this week's DLC?