Sonic X Shadow Generations thread, movie level out now

The branching paths for each level are incredible, the level design gap with Sonic Generations is really noticeable when switching back and forth between games. If this was a final hurrah for the boost formula before Frontiers 2, or an indication of more Boost in the future, I'd be happy with either.

 

As much as I love that setpiece and am happy to see it again in Shadow Gens, I won't lie, there's something about Adventure style gameplay that allows dramatic setpieces to have more... breathing space? idk how else to put it, there's more of an ebb and flow to the whole thing. Just compare Speed Highway in Generations to the original.

In the boost games the proportions are all designed to be smaller and the end result is that everything feels weirdly miniaturised lol

(also it's kind of funny that they introduced a surfing mechanic in Kingdom Valley but didn't have you surf along the waterfall, I know that would make no sense at all but it would've been cool :P)

 

I'm interested in the context for this...

What about Maria giving Shadow his name makes the world feel smaller? We already knew Shadow was a bio-artificial creation. She was there when he was being created...why shouldn't she have a part in that?

Usually when retroactive details makes the "world feel smaller" it's because new interesting things get tied to existing stuff for no real reason. Maria naming Shadow doesn't really fit with that.

---

You already seem disinterested, so you don't have to answer...but I wanted to ask anyway.

 

re: Shadow having to make a tough choice
I think Shadow did have to make one. When he first sees Maria and Gerald in White Space he thinks that perhaps he can change their fates. I don't remember if it was in a cutscene, or when you talk with Gerald in the hub world, but he does caution Shadow against messing with the timeline, and to not tell them anything about the future.

 

I don't like Ian Flynn's writing and I don't wish to discuss it or my various problems with it, when many people in the Sonic community have these same problems with it as well.

There is a reason that, in all the weeks we've been here talking about the game, I didn't mention ANYTHING about the story a single time. Until yesterday when people got upset when I said I didn't want Ian Flynn to have anything to do with writing a backstory for Sonic. I still don't.

There's nothing that will change my mind on this.

 

I said you didn't have to answer...

 

Uhh... But we DID get all of that. Maria even made Shadow blush in one cute scene, which you apparently did not saw since I get the feeling you didn't repeatedly interact with her and Gerald in White Space.

I guess if you're already so extremely hostile to Ian Flynn then it's no wonder you'd skip over all this stuff. In fact, you do admit elsewhere that you play these game only for the gameplay part.

 

I think the story was fairly uninteresting. Not much more than the kind of story you'd find in something like Smash Bros, Dissidia, PlayStation All Stars. Perfectly serviceable and inoffensive but nothing of value really happened. We didn't learn anything substantial about any of the characters in the game. Maybe the Gerald journal? But that isn't core game content. It was an anniversary style story and it was fine for what it was. But I'd consider it far below the standards of even SA1 and SA2. And even Lost World which I consider to be quite a competent story for the series.

I do have a fairly major criticism of Flynn that he doesn't really do anything of value or substance in his stories. Frontiers made an attempt - I get it , Amy discovering true nature of love, Knuckles discovering himself, Tails becoming independent. I get it. Frontiers is probably better in this respect. But his stories largely consist of characters standing around delivering exposition and character development at each other and not much actually happening. His writing on the anime shorts is the same and it is the same here in Shadow Gens. Nothing really happens even if attempts at character development are made. Characters don't grow on a journey through narrative events, they just speak to each other about their feelings. I think the adage 'show don't tell' is very cliche tbh but Flynn really does tell, tell, tell.

I think what's good about Shadow Gens is not the story but the presentation of the story. The audio and ambience direction, character animation, cinematography. Even the VA is better than Frontiers (wouldn't be hard. I like Roger Craig Smith but he was absolutely atrocious in that game). It's done with unusual elegance in Shadow Gens.

 

Who wants to make "Bring Pontaff writers back" petitions?/s

 

From what I've seen in various Sonic communities on the net, there are also many, many more fans who absolutely love Ian's writing, which brings me to my next point:

Maybe people got "upset" because they like his writing and don't like the idea of firing Ian? But of course, you're not the one who's actually "upset" about his continuing presence. It's the others who are over-emotional...

Why even start this discussion if you're certain that you're objectively right and everyone who dares to disagree with you is wrong and "upset"?

 

Yeah the story did nothing for me either, though there were a few scenes that piqued my interest before apathy set back in. Sonic Team really needs to realize that trying to tell relatively complex narratives in a very short run time doesn't work. Shadow Gens (and most Sonic stories of the 00s) felt to me like it was a bunch of big moments with nonexistent buildup. Even for something like this story that's rooted in nostalgia, it falls flat because what came before was also just a bunch of big moments with no build up. For example, the whole Gerald calling Shadow "son" thing comes off as goofy because the only thing we know about Gerald is that he went insane and used Shadow for an insane revenge scheme, we don't really know anything about these characters' relationship before the Ark Tragedy beyond basic backstory info.

No one can really blame Ian for this because 1. he's a comic book writer, writing for a game is a completely different beast where plot elements are guaranteed to get cut because finishing the game comes first. And 2. because Shadow Gens is just going back to the old standard for Sonic stories.

 

IMO Shadow Gens has like, frankly no story until the very end, but I'm willing to forgive that somewhat when it's not even really meant to be a big mainline game. But my main criticism would be exactly that: basically nothing happens until the very end (which is very bittersweet and enjoyable). Ironically, it has about as much actual Stuff Happening™ as Generations in terms of narrative events (there is basically no conflict besides "Black Doom is evil" and Doom himself does, like, nothing but go "MUHAHA THE PROMISED TIME WILL COME", though Ben Diskin's performance is fun enough for it to not matter), but the difference is the actual character writing is more enjoyable and the game has, like, a villain/conflict at all. It's a good example of how a threadbare plot can still be fun if the performances/writing carry it enough. Both games have a bunch of NPCs that do nothing but stand around, but Shadow has WAAAAAAY better lines for them.

But seriously the entire plot of this game is:

Black Doom: SHADOW, THE PROMISED TIME WILL COME AND THE BLACK ARMS WILL RISE AGAIN *does absolutely nothing*
Shadow: Whatever, loser (I'm gonna beat the fuck outta this dweeb when I meet him)

 

Can you imagine how much cutscene animation costs? Standing, talking and do nothing is cheaper than doing action dynamic poses.

 

• The story was very uneventful. Nothing happened over the course of the game whatsoever, except the crossover scene with Sonic. All of the new story content was in the prequel animation and the journal.
• Would've been nice if the game even bothered to explain the revival of Black Doom at all.
• Maria and Gerald did bugger all.
• Maria is still just a figure of angelic perfection with nothing else to her. Some of her dialogue was super contrived too. "Shadow, you look grim" and "I named you Shadow because a shadow will show you the way to the the light". Yeah okay, "12 year old girl".
• Gerald calling Shadow "son" also felt weirdly forced, regardless of the fact he's said it previously. (It was also forced and hard to believe when Eggman and Sage had this same dynamic in Frontiers) Sadly he and Maria are still just plot devices in the first game where they're actually present.
• Shadow's entire arc here feels like something of a retread of his arc from ShTH, with the only difference being that he already knows about his background and Black Doom. He gets angry until Maria tells him not to be. Boring.
• Character interactions aside from the incidents mentioned above were really nice. They carried the "story", or lack thereof. It was nice having random chats with everyone in White Space.
• The whole story of this game felt like nothing more than an excuse plot. It pulled it off well, but I'm really fucking bored of Sonic games having such non-stories.
• Spoiler: Irrelevant

  Rouge killed every scene she was in because he voice is just that insanely awful oh my god I've never hated a voice on a character more in my life.

Story bad, characters good, presentation good. That's all I can say.

Props to this game finally having movement in cutscenes for the cutest time since... 2008? Fucking hell. Sonic games have been embarrassingly under par for far too long. Like, I enjoyed watching these cutscenes for more than just the raw dialogue, which is something I can't say for Frontiers. Aside from the cutscene with Sonic though, are they actually even impressive? They just feel like decent, should-be-expected cutscenes imo.

 

You got...about 3 animated shorts series with an actual story to tell in which this can only be applied to 2 of them.

One of them because it's entirely inner monologue over what is basically a vignette.

And the other one consists of backstory more than it is a..."story".

The 3rd one is just a lighthearted short conflict, it's just giving...a short experience of what happened during the game.

It doesn't really help most of the animated shorts are prologues...besides Mania Adventures.

 

I didn't start any discussion. All I said is that I didn't want this writing staff to write a Sonic Origins story. Then I said why I didn't like the storyline for Shadow Generations. And I stand by my reasons.

I think Ian Flynn's writing for Sonic is generic and bland and IS the reason I no longer about stories in Sonic games. Cool? He ruined Sonic stories for me.

If you want to know the real reason I stopped responding it's because @Sneasy claimed I "shouldn't have liked any story so far if I didn't like this one" which is putting words in my mouth AT BEST and trying to tell me what I should like and what I should like at worst. And I'm not going to engage with that or anyone who has no problem with that.

Also if anyone has an issue with this , this person quoted me twice after I said i no longer wanted to engage so here we are.

 

It's not like there's an unreasonable number of NPCs in Shadow Gens, though. They could have done something to make the dialogues a little more compelling. I'm looking at Final Fantasy VII Remake right now, and even there they can be a bit jarring. We're at the brink of reaching CGI level of graphics. Maybe it's better to downgrade your expectations of CGI level cutscenes rather than *desperately* trying to match those standards.

 

Argue all you want, but you cannot argue with the budget.

 

I'm tired of talking about the budget like we even know the budgets for these games or that it's even our problem. It's not my fault that SEGA don't fund their own games and doll out slop.

Yeah, it certainly does feel like SEGA pumped quite a bit of capital into Shadow Generations when they have cheaped out on so many other games. But the other games have been middling, and it feels like they're not getting the most out of what they have. If the games aren't up to scratch, I'm gonna critique them for it, budget be damned.

 

If you were an animator, don't be surprised how expensive animation is.