Sonic X Shadow Generations thread, movie level out now

I don't entirely agree. Through a combination of physics, level design and movement, it's more like a boost imitation of SA2.

This gameplay isn't bad. It just leaves me yearning for something more. Something that doesn't feel so binary.

 

Did you see that there are two pathways presented in the video, the major deviation of such being if you chose to stomp on the rope which allows Shadow to go higher and get to a higher path? A decision that is not immediate obvious yet still intuitive, one that is not telegraphed to you (well, there will probably be a prompt your first time), requires interacting with the level in a conscious manner (like not just Homing Attacking in front of you), and almost always rewards you with something significant, like an entirely different pathway.

The top path that you get from using the rope in that way is one that has fewer Homing Attack chains but more opportunities to speed through the level with more ropes that lead to more alternate pathways. It's interesting too that the top path has fewer enemies and more places to just run fast, especially when you consider that only defeating enemies give you the Chaos Gauge, which means that going on the bottom path may not be as fast but rewards you with a valuable power that can make other sections faster.

Now, I just rewatched Metal Harbor, and I don't think you're able to convince me that the level with rails that don't even go anywhere, Homing Attack chains, a bunch of boxy straight lines with little deviation, automated loops, somersault sections that are repeated the same way with no variation, and a skateboarding section more linear and easier than the one presented in the very first level, is more "interactive". I guess you can use the Spin Dash for skips, but with how the only slopes are cordoned off by either rails or barristers, you could only really Spin Dash off the tanks, which is what you can do with the boost.

If we want to be blunt, that one video shows an improvement from SA2.

And that video doesn't show you everything else about the level, like how the Doom Surf turns the basin later in the level into a huge open area, or how the multiple Black Arms enemies in the stage are always opportunities to use the Doom Blast to create shortcuts or access alternate pathways.

(Also the extremely obvious fact that the player is intentionally playing in a slow, casual manner)

 

I know what you mean, I think SA2 has splashes of dynamic gameplay that I wish would return, but they're just that. Splashes. I just think there's more 'Sonic Adventure 2' here than not.

I do agree that it's not the big step up the OP is saying. There's a lot of routes here which is nice but it's not like Gens where there'd be something interesting happening on each one yet.

 

i have to disagree that generations was particularly interesting in regards to alternate paths - there are standout moments (chemical plant and seaside hill come to mind) but for the most part the game is constantly fighting tooth and nail to keep you on the critical path at all times, even when it's not literally being 2D. in generations, i find myself constantly being fenced in even within the already sparse "true 3D" sections of the game.

in contrast, shadow's kingdom valley act 2 is entirely 3D, and it seemed like the game was much less constrained in terms of lateral movement, which is precisely why a lot of the skips were possible in the first place. i don't want to overstate things - it's still not nearly as complex as sonic levels pre-adventure 2 - but it's definitely more open and more layered than most boost sonic offerings.

 

Speaking as someone who's optimistic for this game, I agree with Blue Blood, to a point. None of what's going on here takes the player to new routes, it's just shortcuts on the same route. There are a few very brief divergences that show potential (I was particularly impressed with the use of Chaos Control into Doom Blast in the surfing sections - that feels like a facilitation of genuine player ingenuity), but it's altogether too brief to really hit. To reiterate something I brought up earlier in the thread, Seaside Hill Modern has this massive variety of routes that don't spend a whole lot of time crossing over with each other, and they're all spaced out and visually seperated from one another, which makes the location feel full and real. Kingdom Valley just doesn't really do that. It's a hard locale to pull it off in, but certainly not impossible. They've got all the tools and even make some college attempts at it, but for whatever reason, this game just seems reticent to allow paths to really diverge into their own thing, and I think that'll hurt replayability, despite other improvements Shadow Generations has made.

 

the routes in that kingdom valley video diverge just as much if not more than the average sa2 speed stage. you don't have to necessarily like that design paradigm (lord knows i don't always love sa2's level design) but the point that i was making is that we are actually seeing a return to meaningfully omni-directional 3D movement rather than merely blasting down 2.5D hallways.

seaside hill modern is genuinely an extraordinary exception to generations's usual level design, and i don't really think it's useful or fair to use that as the measuring stick for the entire project. generations is, in the main, a game with pretty restrained level design, and remains fun and replayable in spite of (or arguably even because of) that.

 

I swear, I feel like I'm the only one who has absolutely 0 care about alternate paths. Unless I'm aiming to get a collectible that's on a specific route I never feel any different when taking a quick route or shortcut over the longer route. Maybe it's because I'm not a speedrunner, which these games are clearly made for (makes me wonder how I became a fan of this series in the 1st place. ... Actually, I think a part of that is the plots. Shame console Colors had to go and completely kill that and I don't even get me started on the Classics), I don't know.

 

Nope, I'm with you . I don't care either and can't wait for this game it looks awesome.

 

Shadow Generations, for what it is, seems like a relatively impressive package I can't lie. Iizuka stressed early on that it's not as big as Sonic Generations, which makes sense. However, it looks like it not only has a pretty sizable amount of content but that it's actually a nice compliment to Frontiers. A smaller, more traditional game compared to the open zone "new direction" of Frontiers. I hope the series continues doing this. Big games several years apart, smaller games like Superstars and Shadow Generations (plus remasters) in the interim.

As someone who can't stand speed running, multiple paths have anyways been one of my main attractions to Sonic games. Unlike levels in other platformers which are designed like obstacle courses that are to be completed sequentially the same way every time, Sonic levels are often more loose and free-flowing. Combined with the natural flow of speed in older games (particularly the Classics), Sonic titles are so easy to approach and have a fun, rewarding time playing. The little boosts of speed from going down hill, the fluidity of movement, the lack of punishment for messing up... Sonic games are at their best when they're encouraging you to move forwards but aren't pushing you forwards. They're thrilling experiences, because they're designef to have lots of little moments that all provide satisfaction throughout any run.

Multiple routes play into that marvellously. You get to experience levels with all their appealing sights and sounds, but it's slightly different every time. You're not always doing the same thing over and over. You could go left, or you can go right. If you have enough speed you'll go one way, but if not you'll go another way. The controls and level designs can be so fluid.

That repeated satisfaction from variety is what I want. Variety needs to present both within and between playthroughs. Shadow Generations is largely failing to achieve this in my eyes because the gameplay looks homogeneous. I'm comparing it to the original Kingdom Valley (particularly but not exclusively the opening section for Sonic) and the differences are stark. There's so much more variety in the layouts and in player interaction. Even if you take different routes the Shadow Generations, the experience doesn't really change at all.

This is also probably why I like Unleashed's levels so much more than subsequent boost games. Because they're so long, you get to experience a lot within each run, even though they're don't have many branching routes. Every level is kind of like a tour or a journey. You get those little rewards scattered through the levels as the locations change, you hit landmarks etc etc.

That's all gone now. Colours, Forces, Cyberspace and Shadow Gens feel sterile. It's objective that the level design and movement are different. But the degree of impact it has is entirely subjective.

 

I was kinda hoping that you could only pick one or 2 of shadow's new abilities, letting you have more decisions on how you approach the level. But it seems you have all the abilities available to you all the time and levels are designed with that in mind.

Edit: It sounds like a very challenging implementation however. But maybe they do something like frontiers by having those star markers that show which methods you have used in the level, kinda inviting you to take on different challenges like not using some abilities.

 

Additional route and options is always a boon, but the 3D games aren't really held back by the fact that they are typically linear. It matters more in the 2D games wherein in the routes are vertically stacked and weave together. That kind of design has never really been attempted with a third dimension, and it becomes far more difficult to accomplish. Instead, the 3D games usually just have short detours (if they even have anything at all).

The other factor is that having different routes adds to the Sonic vibes on a extrinsic level though, and that's at least something that Shadow Generations gets right. Sonic levels usually have some sort of location/plot context. They aren't just random obstacle courses. When the levels are sprawling (either through length or depth), you get a better sense of the journeys they're undertaking. Your more involved in finding a way to the goal.

It's just a shame that the routes Shadow Generations offers are... Meh.

 

I agree. It's all contextual, really. More routes don't matter at all if the objective structure doesn't lend itself to trying different things in the same stage every now and then, be it because you have to or because something shiny caught your eye. Even then, that doesn't really need routes to work, strictly speaking. You can have all that by providing multiple layers of objectives in a stage that all use Sonic's set of abilities in different ways, even in a linear stage, and challenges with a lot of skill depth. Even with fewer routes, it's more important to let the player know what they are missing all the time, and there's no reason a Boost stage can't do that even in 3D. They simply rarely choose to do so.

 

I think it's mostly intent contextual? Sometimes simpler is better for sure, but a gradual growth via complicating a baseline formula and straying away from expected paths is generally the way to vary a title to it's completion. More routes for the sake of the routes themselves, without consideration of how it'll impact the experience of play, isn't wholly the best imo... But it is a way to complicate, and thus typically the approach taken.

Green Hill isn't the be all end all of the level design, it's the badda-swing! of introductions, and the push towards the more egregious latter stages to test your skills like Scrap Brain, while for my best 3D example I'd compare Windmill Isle to Eggmanland. I wouldn't give my worst enemy Eggmanland to start off from and then somehow continue, thats more of a Kaizo thing anyways.

Note: Ninja'd by Palas, oops ^^;;

 

More routes means more freedom, replayability, and richer and more intricate level design. Giving the player enough autonomy to feel in control and make each playthrough different is always good, as video games are pretty much all about interactivity and the player's actions.

Obviously if the alternate routes are barebones and pointless, they won't add much to the experience. But that's the same for level design in general, not just alternate paths. Sonic games tend to have different goodies and stuff per routes, and more importantly secrets and collectibles like giant rings or red star rings, incentivizing players to take alternate routes on replays.

 

Equating alternate paths to speed running is pretty weird and doesn't really make sense.

It's just a skill based thing; you react, use an ability or have keen eyes in order to reach a harder/secret path. They may be faster, give you goodies or it's just an entirely different route that's more difficult to stay on.

That's what you'd want. In 3D Sonic...the alternate path is almost always a faster shortcut (typically because the games don't even have items anymore), which is not that great. It also tends to be not that hard to reach it which means you'll always go for it depending on the level. I find it underwhelming level design if it takes more effort to take the normal path.

 

This isn't necessarily or inherently true. Choices have to be meaningful (or, as Sid Meier would put it, interesting) to matter at all and for freedom to be a factor, and this has to do with more than the mere presence of alternate routes as devised by the designer. What is there in them only matters insofar as the player's objectives and priorities are concerned, and the fact that they exist alone is a weak incentive to pursue them. Autonomy doesn't come from freedom, it comes from ownership of the experience, i.e.: the commitment a player feels toward a choice they made. More freedom doesn't always, or necessarily, help with that.

Or, in other words, I'll take Sonic 1 (MS)'s Scrap Brain Act 1, which is linear but a) has many interesting choices b) by virtue of being linear makes it feel like the game is narrowing down to its final showdown, which it is, over Wing Fortress, which has a lot of routes with a lot of stuff, but they barely matter (because my objectives in them rarely change and I'm mostly always worried about the same things) any day of the week.

Sure, alternate paths can be cool and make a stage more enjoyable. But not always, and not inherently so.

 

Both Speed Highway and Emerald Coast are good levels...
That's the point.

 

Alternate paths aren't always skill based. They're very often not, in fact. That's something that gets repeatedly overstated when people analyse Sonic level design. A lot of the time, alternate paths simply offer a different but virtually equal way forwards. It's fun to have the options and never know exactly how a run of a level will turn out.

 

Since we're opening up the multiple paths discussion again, I'll humbly point out an example where this was tried in 3D: Beta Windy Valley. That stage had lots of interconnected paths similar to the 2D games, but unlike those they played with 3D space rather than higher or lower routes. Granted, some of it may be a little rough, but I'd argue that it's definitely something possible, and, for some reason, Sonic Team decided not to go in that direction.

They instead opted for more streamlined levels and that design ethos has carried through up into this game. They're reconsidering their position on it, it would seem, otherwise the small alternate shortcuts in this game wouldn't be there.