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SONIC X SHADOW GENERATIONS - Dark Beginnings

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Crimson Neo, Sep 25, 2024.

  1. Crimson Neo

    Crimson Neo

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    I all it matter to me is the execution of tolding her story was good in this animation (because well, the way they did that 20 years ago didn't aged very well).

    And they nailed it, my only issue was it was short, but better being short and sweet than long and dragged out.

    I'm glad this franchise is not afraid of showing its emotional and soft side of characters, it's what make they more alive and care about them in first place.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2024
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  2. Technically Inept

    Technically Inept

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    As far as her maintaining that joy despite it all, (which I honestly again just view as typical, anime Waifu crap) that could only work if we got to SEE some of that struggle to do that. As portrayed so far, it really doesn’t seem to be too much of an obstacle to that.

    I did think about the other thing you said with Shadow. I would say the same about it, because she does not exactly appear to be wrestling with internal conflict in that scene.

    But hoenstly, I am not even sure if that is how I interpret that scene. Pretty sure she was going to die anyway, so there was no life to sacrifice. It was moreso a dying wish type thing.


    Even if she wasn’t going to die…

    then why did she stay behind?

    you could make the argument that there wasn’t enough time for her to get in the pod as well or something. Despite her having time for a whole speech. But at best, that’s headcanon.
     
  3. Crimson Neo

    Crimson Neo

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    Why are you calling her "anime waifu" she's (a character made by Japaneses, by the way...) just a minor, bro. This is so weird.
     
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  4. Technically Inept

    Technically Inept

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    …maybe that is a bad choice of words.

    In this case, what I mean is that they’re just trying to make her as likable as possible by infusing all the wholesomeness, goodness, purity, optimism, positivity, softness and stuff they can into her character, making her this angelic being of a person, to the point that it makes the character feel ingenuine…

    …rather than making a believable, relatable, well rounded character.

    that’s what I mean when I say that. While weebs may say that when they think someone is girlfriend material or some crap, for me it’s pretty much a derogatory term that I reserve for all female anime characters of that type, regardless of age.

    Only somewhat related, but I freaking hate Genshin, by the way.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2024
  5. Deep Dive Devin

    Deep Dive Devin

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    Maria in SA2 is basically just a prop. Her entire existence basically just serves as the motivation for other guys to do stuff. It's everything since then that's tried to give her more of a personality and stuff to do in the limited window of being alive that she's had. There's been mixed results.

    I don't like Shadow the Game retconning her saving Shadow as future-proofing an alien invasion, but I think her very concerned but calm attitude in the flashback levels is kind of charming. She kind of reacts to the chaos as if it's something she's experienced, which between Emerl and the artificial chaos makes me wonder if the ARK was just one nightmare after another that people got used to just living with, like Tokyo-3 in Eva.

    Dark Beginnings takes the "wanting to see Earth" idea and expands it to her being kind of a nerd about space and Earth, which goes with the schooling artwork (side note: cute as shit). I like seeing this side because it's mostly independent of Shadow himself.

    Ultimately it's not much but she is more than she used to be. Only problem is that Shadow's backstory only has so much time that can conceivably be milked out of it, so either we're not seeing much more of her or it's gonna get real boring and repetitive real quick.

    ...Assuming she's not literally resurrected in Shadow Generations. I guess you'd be able to show her personality more if you did that.:tinfoil:
     
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  6. The Deleter

    The Deleter

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    I'm just glad that I'm not someone who ascribes to "plot device" or "prop" when considering characters in stories solely because of the milage they got out of them. Imagine watching something like Pluto and getting hung up on any of the characters that don't make an appearance beyond their deaths that have already happened, because their implied past and human nature (in spite of not even being human) is not enough to be invested in their worth in the story, to other characters, and as a character themselves. A series of characters that simply did not matter at all, really.
     
  7. BlackHole

    BlackHole

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    She also expresses sympathy for the Artificial Chaos.

    "The research experiments... their eyes look so sad..."

    I do think the Emerl and Lost Impact events were one and the same, and that's why you're going to Gerald's lab...
     
  8. Technically Inept

    Technically Inept

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    …It’s okay for a character to be a plot device, by the way. It’s not the best thing in the world you can do. But it’s okay. Side characters exist.

    I just don’t care for Maria in particular because of the type of character she is and reminds me of is one I have a personal disliking of.

    And honestly I don’t even hate that on principle. It’s just means that some times the stuff she says is really cringy to me. Mostly I am indifferent to her.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2024
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  9. Overlord

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    Maria is Uncle Ben. She exists to die. There's not really much more to her beyond that.
     
  10. Deep Dive Devin

    Deep Dive Devin

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    Woah, hey. I'm saying that SA2 is not giving her much to herself, I'm not saying she doesn't matter. It's not my fault if the story's interest in her doesn't really extend beyond her use as a motive for others. I'm not devaluing her based on a lack of actions or screentime, I'm saying that for someone that keeps cropping up in the series narrative, it took a while for them to portray her as a person of her own, with any hint of flaws or goals or just...personality traits in general. I'm only saying that if she's gonna be the centerpiece for like three different dudes losing their mind and trying to kill people, knowing who she is as a human being should have been a bigger priority. I do think that a story where lots of people die is more effective when we know what any of those people are like, yes.
     
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  11. Yeah, pretty much.

    Expanding on Shadow's life on the Ark is literally the only way to flesh out her character...outside of Time Travel.

    We could've seen dedicated stories about the past a long time ago, but we only get snippets.
     
  12. Volphied

    Volphied

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    One detail I liked was when she grabbed Shadow's hand as she pleaded for him to save Gerald. A very similar scene happens in Shadow'05.

    As a kid, I was a huge nerd about space and Earth (still am a nerd about it). Had I actually been able to visit outer space at that age, I'd definitely start acting like a "cringy anime waifu" every time I'd talk about the Earth.

    Heck, grown-up astronauts have been known to experience an epiphany after their first trip to space.
     
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  13. Crimson Neo

    Crimson Neo

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    I was thinking about Batman's parent, but it also works. lol
     
  14. The Deleter

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    "Exists to die" is correct in any story that involves a character death, whether it's before you become familiar with them or after an entire series. "Not much more to her beyond that" is my problem with the accuracy, because while it's true we've never learned the full extent of her personality in the same way as you would if you knew someone directly, you inherently have to be reductive to sum up the actual extent of their character that does demonstrably exist in the narrative, either explicitly or inferably. I've never understood using the barometer of Uncle Ben in a negative way, because that is one of the best, most relatable examples of a character passing on that exhibits the kind of person he is, and the impact that people have on others in their humanity and their nature to begin with.

    The latter point is always my issue regarding this. Yes, I do get that it takes more screentime for most people to cross over to becoming invested in a character, and I'll grant anyone that regarding Maria and potential to do that via more stories. Dark Beginnings is exactly the kind of stuff they could have or arguably should have done, when it's as big of a talking point as this. Regardless of that, simply demonstrating the nature of that character even after they have passed through their impact on others surrounding them is still enough to infer what those people are like when they speak on them, how they were impacted, why they mattered in their lives etc. I can understand audiences wanting to know characters better, but I do not agree with that lack of investment coming away with a different conclusion in just how much they matter, either as a plea for emotional resonance when the only thing you have to go off of is how other characters feel, or a representation/reflection of the significance of human life itself. I don't need to know Tobio personally, but he has just as much worth as a character to me as Dr. Tenma, in spite of knowing the latter directly, and the former wholly through inference.
     
  15. Volphied

    Volphied

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    This will always be one of my favorite Uncle Ben moments. He's so much more than just someone who died at the start of the story.
     
  16. Deep Dive Devin

    Deep Dive Devin

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    If you're arguing that someone can be effectively characterized and invest the audience through how other characters treat, remember and relate to them, then yes, I agree. That's how like the entire first third of Steven Universe goes. The way Pearl and Greg talk about Rose builds this image of an affable goddess that was maybe a bit overwhelming to talk to, but ultimately only did good for the world. Which is why it's such an effective rug pull that Rose Quartz was this bizarre secretive weirdo with no idea how to exist in any kind of status quo who very much did terrible things and can't be looked at solely as the founder of some legitimate order but a tired group of directionless weirdos still fighting a long-dead war.

    The problem is the Sonic series also doesn't do that with Maria very much. Not the rug pull thing (although that'd certainly be a hell of a twist), but building an impression of the character beyond the baseline at all. You're not hearing stories about what an intelligent or headstrong or funny kid Maria was. You didn't get the impression she had opinions on the ARK or her illness, or how much she knew about the research or even why she was there in the first place. At the absolute maximum, her curiosity about Earth and her existence in the same place as Shadow could convey a sense of loneliness, which, yeah, I fuckin' bet. But that's all gleamed from the flashback, not anyone's particular impression of her. The only stuff Shadow and Gerald give us is that she was an innocent child who didn't deserve to be shot to death, which is not really much of an observation! Most people believe innocent children shouldn't be shot to death! Though, depressingly, less than I used to think. I can get "cares about dead family member enough to do reckless things" from every single schlock action movie ever made. In fact, most of them are already frail blonde women! All of this is in the execution, and SA2 isn't there.
     
  17. The Deleter

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    I'd argue that it's more than that. SA2 does provide you with the context that the ARK had a list of people who died in GUN's invasion. You are able to infer that a tragic event happened on the ark in much the same way she was shown to have been killed, and the series has done nothing but confirm that in the context of a massacre. You spend a majority of the game assuming that Maria wanted revenge on the earth, if you buy into Shadow's resolution, but the twist is the opposite, and you're left with someone who was done all the wrong in the world, asking for the person she saved to refrain from doing the same, while pouring her heart out at the last moment. Yes, this can be summed up to kindness and tragedy that tropes already use and abuse in these kind of stories, but the juxtaposition of the situation you are expected to infer through the text in the game, compared to her judgement, her outlook, and her nature in that moment, is conveying every bit of her nature that people want to see in extended media to begin with. She doesn't suddenly "gain a personality" as critics would say once she's shown in any other flashback that exhibits her kindness, it's merely expanding on what was already established.

    On the flip side, we didn't know she was a nerd for science and astronomy, we didn't know that she ran around the Ark playing with Abraham or trying to have fun with Shadow when she could, and we didn't know her full thoughts on things like the earth. Those are all new additions that do expand on a character to make her "an actual character" in ways people would consider characters to be used when they're present in storytelling, but to say that SA2 didn't provide viewers with a meaningful baseline ultimatum of who Maria is inherently just isn't something I can get behind.
     
  18. All of this is simply something you could assume...based on her relation to the characters.

    An interest in science and such: Well she's related to Gerald Robotnik and Dr. Eggman, 2 scientists.

    Playing with Commander Abe: Seeing as the Shadow game shows this, it'd only make sense that having another person there her age would have a positive effect.

    Fascination with Earth: It's one of the first things we see of her, but it's nothing more than a single line.

    Interacting with Shadow: It's still just a single scene, a single line...
    ---

    Adventure 2 provides "a" basis, but it's up to every succeeding piece of Sonic media to actually add interesting elements to that. Maria is literally a plain butter cake, the manga, Sonic Channel art, and Dark Beginnings are the frosting and everything else.
     
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  19. shilz

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    You don't get to know "who" Maria was because she never got to be it, that's part of the tragedy. She stared at the earth any chance she could dreaming she could go there instead of spending who knows how long in testing just for the chance of making it there with the ability to live a proper life. Maybe she watched movies or read books at one point or another, did some sort of schoolwork, but there's probably not much more to her outside of that. The concept of her level of isolation escapes most, but I promise that you're not missing anything but the exact nature of how she was medically treated and the names of ALL the people she cared about.
     
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  20. Blue Blood

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    I think this is missing the point. Whatever she would have been like as she grew up is completely irrelevant. Maria was an important part of both Shadow and Gerald's lives, but we hardly know why either of them cared quite so much. Of course it's fair to say that Gerald cared because she was his granddaughter, but why but did Shadow give a fuck? All we saw her do in SA2 was die, and all we saw her do in ShTH was die again. Her only defining trait was that she was somehow angelic in nature.

    Dark Beginnings hasn't shed much light on her, but seeing her come to Shadow's defence and get excited over the aurora borealis is a solid start. She's still not much more than a plot device to the audience, and that's a real problem. You can argue that there's a disconnect between the raw the pain that Shadow is supposed to be feeling and what the audience is capable of feeling for a character they don't get to know, especially since Maria is always a focal point but we rarely hear anything except "she dead". Shadow's backstory and motivation has been too much tell, not enough show.

    That said, I like what Dark Beginnings did for all the characters involved. It's better than they've had in the past and it's added enough depth for me to care.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2024