don't click here

Sonic Tier Lists Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by charcoal, Sep 10, 2022.

  1. _Sidle

    _Sidle

    Member
    229
    181
    43
    If anyone is having trouble narrowing down and organizing your lists, I slapped a lot of Sonic games into that "favorite picker" thing that was originally made for sorting the much larger pool of every single Pokémon. [+]

    If you're vigilant and thoughtful with your choices, you should get a fairly accurate sort. Apparently I was neither of those, so SegaSonic and Fighters are vibing in my top 10... I do like them a lot as smol cute lil things but seeing them above Generations and SA1 is the funniest shit in the world ahahaha

    upload_2022-9-10_0-17-29.png

    The idea for the favorite Pokémon picker is not original to me; it is inspired by an old, now-defunct original that has been recreated with upgrades. Basically, it would present you with a random pair of Pokémon, you'd pick the one you liked better, and that would eliminate the other Pokémon from the running and then give you another pair randomly chosen from the remaining Pokémon. Eventually, when you had eliminated every Pokémon but one, the remaining one had to be your very favorite Pokémon, and the last few you eliminated were given second to tenth place.

    This picker was designed to improve on this concept. The main differences are that it will present you with up to 20 Pokémon at a time by default, which speeds up the picking process considerably, and that rather than giving second to tenth place to the last nine Pokémon you eliminated (which leaves them partially up to chance - if the old picker happens to make you pick between your two favorites early on, your real second favorite won't even make the list), it will instead bring back all Pokémon eliminated by your favorite and have you pick between them in the same way as before. This recursiveness also means that instead of cutting it off at top ten, you can in theory continue picking until you've ordered literally every single Pokémon into a favorites list.

    The basic principle driving this picker is still elimination - it just also keeps track of which Pokémon you picked over each eliminated Pokémon. For example, if the picker shows Charizard and Butterfree, and you pick Charizard, it doesn't give Charizard points or mark it as liked somehow; it just marks Butterfree as eliminated by Charizard. If you eventually go on to eliminate every Pokémon except Charizard, then Charizard will be added to your Found Favorites, and Butterfree (and any other Pokémon that were eliminated by Charizard) will be back in the running for second place. Similarly, if you had previously had a batch with Charizard, Butterfree and Blastoise in it, and you picked Charizard and Butterfree, then Blastoise will reappear whenever Charizard and Butterfree have both been added under Found Favorites.

    All that picking means is therefore, "I like all of these Pokémon better than any of those." This is intentionally a broad, flexible statement; you'll end up with the same result regardless of how many Pokémon you choose to pick from each batch, so it's up to you how many you want to pick at a time. If you just want to get your number one favorite or a select few, it's quickest to try to pick just one Pokémon from each batch, while if you want to construct something like a top fifty list, you may want to start by picking every Pokémon that's likely to end up in that top fifty.

    The elimination mechanic is also why you can't pick nothing; Pokémon can only ever be eliminated by some other Pokémon, so that the picker can know when to bring them back. The "Pass" button is instead equivalent to picking every Pokémon in the batch, which eliminates nothing and simply means all those Pokémon get shuffled into the next round - passing over and over won't get you anywhere, so make sure you do some actual picking.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Josh

    Josh

    Oldbie
    2,123
    1,085
    93
    USA
    upload_2022-9-10_5-20-50.png

    Fantastic idea, but it doesn't seem to be working for me. Tried it in Firefox and Chrome, am I doing something wrong? (I did unzip it!)
     
  3. _Sidle

    _Sidle

    Member
    229
    181
    43
    Somehow managed to fix that by reentering the whole pool of game names manually, weird.
    Uploaded the hotfix to my OP, try redownloading and see if that works @Josh
     
  4. Josh

    Josh

    Oldbie
    2,123
    1,085
    93
    USA
    Yeah, that did it, thanks for taking the time!
     
  5. kyasarintsu

    kyasarintsu

    Member
    259
    81
    28
    I find it really hard to even formulate a tier list. I'd put Mania and the classics on top, but... then what? I like SA1 and the Rush games. Past that it's just games that are "whatever, it's fine enough" with the exceptions of what I'd call true shovelware: Lost World (3DS), Chronicles, 06, Free Riders, and Secret Rings.
     
  6. Starduster

    Starduster

    Sonic Retro's resident IDW slut Member
    1,192
    784
    93
    Britain
    Art...always art...
    [​IMG]
    Well, here we are. I fully expect to be decried as a heretic for some of my takes here, but I think there are several games in this series that are just massively overrated (Adventure 2) and some that aren't given a fair shake just because of all the baggage this series has picked up (Rush). Also, I shuffled spinoffs which don't have the same core gameplay to the back of their tiers because I find it pretty fruitless to try and compare them with the mainline games (though I must stress that, even considering that, Sonic Speed Battle is in fact the worst Sonic game ever, not Chronicles).

    Anyway, I will now be taking questions, I guess.
     
  7. Josh

    Josh

    Oldbie
    2,123
    1,085
    93
    USA
    Hey, your top four matches mine, just in a slightly different order! Given that you want questions and we've got a lot of common favorites, I've got one: What do you see in Advance 2 that I don't? I love the presentation, but the level design is such a drag that I can never get much out of it.
     
  8. Starduster

    Starduster

    Sonic Retro's resident IDW slut Member
    1,192
    784
    93
    Britain
    Art...always art...
    @Josh I appreciate that Advance 2's level design is...frustrating in places and the game certainly demands a lot of players, with a pretty steep learning curve for consistently impressive gameplay, but when you get there, my god...

    I don't think any other Sonic game has been able to make me feel quite so stylish as Advance 2 does while playing. Sonic's movement options have never been more diverse in a 2D game and it's all very conducive to the downhill sprint that each level subtly centres itself on. Perhaps with the exception of the Homing Attack, no move in this game feels wasted - it's all in service of giving the player the options to move where they want to, when they want to (so long as they have enough speed).

    Of course, the presentation is great as well. The Advance games are the closest we've ever gotten to Uekawa's artwork come to life, the backgrounds and level locales are top notch, melding the grounded aesthetic of the Adventure games with the trippy environments of the classics and the music is as good as Sonic music ever is.

    And that's not say the game doesn't have problems. Trying to grab the SP rings is a slog and I would never recommend going for a 100% run, the bosses could use more variety, even if they do pretty well for the fact that they all have Sonic chasing after them (except the final boss of course) and there is no denying that the game gets cheap about punishing the player the further into it you get (I remember being stuck in Sky Canyon as a kid because I didn't realise you couldn't make a jump over a bottomless pit without a trick), but I feel that does little to dent all the positives this game has. I'd go so far as to argue that no Sonic game is as rewarding to play as Advance 2, full stop. Just look at this speedrun from kirbymastah 2 years ago. Sure, he flubs in some places and has to restart levels a couple of times due to missing SP rings in a 100% run, but I think he perfectly demonstrates what I mean about this game's movement options:

     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  9. @Starduster , lovely breakdown of the finer points of SAdv2! Reaffirms my relatively thoughtless decision to rank it higher than 3, despite the merits that entry has and the influence Chaotix had on it. As far as I'm concerned they both had predominantly iffy and oftentimes cheap-at-first-glance stage design, but my not so deep or remotely analyzed choice in putting 2 above 3 essentially boiled down to it being closer to the first simply because it followed it. Also... despite being an absolute chore to unlock her, I dug that Amy was a prize.

    The real reason for my reply is that your sentiments tend to echo my reverence for Sonic Rush. It shared some of the cheapass bottomless pit littered stage design, but once you learned the stages you could have such a blast! I personally never got to that point in any GBA game beyond the first Advance, but I have nothing but respect for those of y'all that did.
     
  10. Starduster

    Starduster

    Sonic Retro's resident IDW slut Member
    1,192
    784
    93
    Britain
    Art...always art...
    Yeah, Rush was the game that I started the series with and while it certainly can provide a similar sense of reward for good execution, I place it below Advance 2 for lacking its depth and creativity. Air movement options are reduced and a lot of level gimmicks feel like ersatz versions of those seen in Advance 2. Still, it’s a solid game in its own right and the trick combo system does give it its own identity against Advance 2, though I’d argue that Rush Adventure largely iterated on everything it did with more creativity and competence (though I may be able to give Rush the award of best Sonic OST).
     
  11. I'd definitely say that Rush has the best OST post-Sonic Adventure. Even though it retained the general mechanics and style of Rush, aside from the music, I found myself disappointed with Rush Adventure.
     
  12. nineko

    nineko

    I am the Holy Cat Tech Member
    6,157
    392
    63
    italy
    I was about to make one, but then I noticed that the 8-bit games are missing (unless I did something wrong), and the top tier wouldn't feel right if I can't put both Sonic 3 & Knuckles and Sonic Triple Trouble in it.
     
  13. BlueSkiesAM2

    BlueSkiesAM2

    Member
    358
    187
    43
    Denmark
    These are the only ones I felt comfortable including on the list. Things like Sonic and Sega All Stars, Drift, and Spinball would really just clutter it up. Sonic R is amazing and deserves inclusion, shut up :V

    Rankings within a tier are not really ordered except for my preference of 3K over Mania and Lost World only just barely making it into the tier it’s in lol. Except for Sonic Advance 3 growing on me the past year, I think this is a pretty standard SonicRetro tier list.

    Edit: Was Rush Adventure not in the linked maker?

    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

  14. So uh... does anyone know where that bizarre Sonic & Knuckles box art is from? It has been bothering me since last night...

    Also really wish they had the rest of the GG games and not just the Drifts... Too lazy to make a proper chart, but they deserve recognition:
    S: Sonic Chaos & Triple Trouble
    A: Sonic 1
    B: Sonic 2
    C: Sonic Blast
    D: Labyrinth (probably, I've never actually played it.)
     
  15. BlueSkiesAM2

    BlueSkiesAM2

    Member
    358
    187
    43
    Denmark
    It’s awful. I usually see it on repros and other non-official representations of Sonic 3 and Knuckles. I’d much prefer people just used the actual Sonic 3 art and scribble in “and Knuckles” than whatever this one is.
     
  16. Or just use the actual cardboard sleeve art.
    [​IMG]
     
  17. SuperSnoopy

    SuperSnoopy

    I like Sonic Advance Member
    1,533
    479
    63
    Lyon, France
    Improving my art and studying Japanese
    Let me join in on that action:
    my-image (1).png
    Games within the same tiers are ranked from left to right.
    As I said in another thread there's really only two games I dislike (the last 2 ones), all the other ones are totally fine in my book.

    But it's okay to play favourites every once in a while! Lost World is probably the odd one of the bunch, but I absolutely love this game and will defend it until my dying breath :V
     
  18. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    Used a different template, since I think it has a tad more scope.

    [​IMG]

    Each of these are tiered in order. The further down the list, the lower in rank it is.

    "Why I'm Here" is exactly as it says on the tin. These games are the main reasons I keep coming back to Sonic; some of my favorite gameplay, aesthetics, music, presentation and characters in one place. It's where I consider the heart of the franchise to be, at least to me.

    The "Great" tier are titles that aren't as powerful as the above category, but I still hold them tightly. SA2 is a game I've clocked hundreds of hours into, Sonic 2 is the game that got me into the franchise and holds up obviously really well, Mania is a stellar symbol of what good Sonic games are, and SRA is just the best of the modern formula with a really fun gameplay loop.

    "Good" is where I still like the titles, but there's honestly more respect than there is adoration. Sonic 1 started it all but I don't come back to it so often because it's somewhat plain and unrefined compared to sequels. Generations would be higher up but it's pretty basic and Mania is the better "remix" collection, even if I prefer Gens's larger scope. Rush is a game that is aesthetically EVERYTHING to me but is sort of unrefined in ways SRA surpasses. Riders is imperfect and a little clunky but still very fun, and Unleashed is a bit, erm. Complicated. But I still love it.

    The "Okay" category would probably be fused with the below category if I didn't feel like I needed to be nice to them. I have a lot of nostalgia for the first three, but none are really a lot to write home about minus music (but what else is new about Sonic). Colors is just the most middle of the road game in the entire franchise.. except for the music. Again.

    "Mediocre" is where I can't help but increase the scrutiny, even if I like things about them. R is the most nostalgic Sonic game to me but I can't let that blind how much a nothing-title it is (best 5/10 EVER made tbh). Chaotix shouldn't be a big mess that's bad to control, but it is. Battle and Fighters are just clunky failed attempts at Sonic fighting games; both equal in successes and failures, but neither good enough to stand over said failures.

    The "Bad" tier are the true classix, folks. Everyone's favorites. You got your Heroes, you got your Shadow, you got your Lost World, Forces, and don't forget the Sonic Advance game where the entire game is a pit.

    And "Horrible" is dogshit dumpster fire burn to the ground. Yes, Spinball and Zero Gravity are there. I'm right.
     
  19. Laura

    Laura

    Brightened Eyes Member
    upload_2022-9-10_18-39-16.png

    So I imagine you have questions!

    I've only included games which I have actually played in depth. So no Game Gear games, Advance series, or non entities such as Spinball. Just to be fair.

    I'm not going to explain my reasonings for each game, just the placements which may seem odd.

    The Excellent category consists of games which are just excellently made and are of exceptional quality.

    I personally think that Mania Plus introduced stuff that was unnecessary and made an elegantly designed game more fluffy. So I personally think that the original Mania is superior. I think that Mania is easily the best Sonic game ever made because of how well designed it is. Said so many times so no need to keep repeating myself!

    I also think that Sonic 3 is a much stronger half than the Sonic and Knuckles half. There's Sandopolis, which is dreadful of course. But Sonic and Knuckles also just generally follows in the Sonic tradition of the second half being weaker than the opening half. Except Sonic and Knuckles makes the levels longer and more tedious. So for this reason I'd actually rank Sonic 3 alone and Sonic 2 over Sonic 3 and Knuckles.

    Sonic 1 is clearly weaker than Sonic 2 and 3 but it's also a very well-designed game and does many things better than its sequels (difficulty, rewarding exploration - I have discussed these points at length in the past). So I think it definitely deserves to be in the Excellent category.

    Sonic and All Stars Racing Transformed is one of the greatest kart racing games ever made. I don't think it deserves to be ranked higher than Sonic 1-3 because it isn't as original. It's not as exceptionally designed as Mania. But it's an excellent game and so deserves to be in the category.

    The Very Good Category consists of games which are really good but just have some flaws holding them back

    I've already discussed Sonic and Knuckles. Sonic CD is very fun and I have a soft spot for it. It has excellent presentation and atmosphere. But the time travel is so flawed I can't overlook it. Sonic Generation is very well designed and much better than the other 3D entries, but its controls are weak and it has a nonsensical story and terrible final boss.

    The Good Category consists of games which are enjoyable but are very flawed.

    Despite what some may expect, I do like both Adventure games. They have a bad camera, mediocre stories, and poor controls. But they are still very enjoyable and both offer a real sense of freedom in movement which makes them deep and rewarding experiences.

    Sonic Colors is probably better designed than Adventure 1 and 2, but it's also safer and doesn't have as much depth. It's a good game but I would rank it lower for that reason.

    Team Sonic Racing is a good racing game but it's just kind of boring. Can't overlook its quality, but the lack of spark ranks it lower than the other games imo.

    The Average Category consists of games which are not well designed but from which you can still get some enjoyment.

    Sonic Heroes is enjoyable in many ways. Has great aesthetic and soundtrack. Some levels have multiple paths. The many characters are fun to mess about with. Not well made at all, but it is dumb fun at times, so I rank it highest.

    The original Sonic Racing game is honestly not that great when you look back at it. It's an okay kart racing game. Carried by the strength of the IPs.

    I honestly think Sonic 4 is better than the games I place below it. Sonic 4 is very poorly made but it's also fairly fun in a dumb way. At least in my opinion. It's not frustrating and it's a mildly entertaining romp. It also does have some multiple paths, which makes its level design more sophisticated than the games below it.

    Sonic Forces is also not frustrating but it's just so devoid of any substance. Lost World is the opposite, which I would usually consider better, but it's just so frustrating. Black Knight is a very badly made game but its aesthetic is better than those below it. It's also largely not frustrating.

    Bad Category consists of games which are not only badly designed but are often downright annoying to play.

    I don't think this is too controversial. Apart from Unleashed! Sorry but I really do think Unleashed is terrible. Daytime stages are trial and error with horrible button mapping. Werehog is atrocious and boring. Medal hunting is game killer in my eyes.

    I love Sonic R. But yeah. It's terrible. Lol!
    .
     
  20. charcoal

    charcoal

    Member
    406
    232
    43
    Oregon
    Honestly, the biggest surprise from this thread was just how many people put Sonic and All Stars Racing Transformed in A tier or above.

    TBH I always just assumed it to be a shovelware Mario Kart knockoff but maybe I'll give it a try on PC when it goes on sale.