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Sonic the Hedgehog & Dragon Ball – Influences and Inspiration

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by YuTwo, Jun 2, 2024.

  1. YuTwo

    YuTwo

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    I brought up this similarity in the article. I asked Yamaguchi, who I must reiterate was the creator of Tails, as he has been the most open about the Dragon Ball influences to Sonic and he said that Goku’s tail flight was not factored into the creation of Tails.

    He says that for Tails design they were thinking of a way to have a character match Sonic’s speed without looking unnatural. They then came up with the idea to have two tails like propellers in order to keep up with Sonic. In turn they could then make Tails fly in the air like a helicopter.
    [​IMG]
    違います。
    もともとソニックと同じくらいのスピードを出しても違和感のない表現方法を模索していたところ、2本の尻尾をプロペラのようにすれば足の速いソニックに追いつけそうだという理由で考えました。
    ヘリコプターの様に空を飛べる事にしたのはそれの応用の発想です。

    Translation via Google Translate:
    No.
    We were originally looking for a way to express a character moving at the same speed as Sonic without it looking unnatural, and we came up with the idea that if we made the two tails like propellers, they would be able to keep up with the fast Sonic.
    The idea behind making it possible to fly in the air like a helicopter was to apply this idea.

    https://twitter.com/judy_totoya/status/1838792196042141923

    https://archive.ph/1ShOE
    This same kind of thought process went into the creation of Metal Sonic. In the Sonic CD dev diary video Kazuyuki Hoshino said that Metal Sonic's torso was designed to be a jet engine in order to match Sonic's speed.
    This sounds interesting. Do you have any links and sources for this? I would like to know more about this please.

    I know Ohshima has already stated that he was not thinking of Goku when he was designing Sonic as people compared Sonic’s quills to Goku’s unique hairstyle but I think the information I have found about Goku’s hair is worth sharing.

    I was watching a video by the channel “Casual Anime Guy Explains” which was about Goku’s creation and there is a part where he mentions the design of his hair bringing up a sourced quote from Toriyama

    (@15:26)

    I wasn’t conscious of this when I made it, but thinking about it now, I suppose it might have been the influence of Astro Boy. The angle of the “horns” and the flat part in the middle look similar, don’t you think? I often receive items that are being released, like figures; I really admire how the sculptors are able to bring out that hairstyle in three dimensions.
    -Dragon Ball Full Color Comics: Freeza Arc Vol. 5
    https://web.archive.org/web/2024030...color-comics-freeza-arc-vol-5-akira-toriyama/

    I recommend watching the entire video. It was done very well.

    I am also aware that Yamaguchi dispelled the connection of the Chaos Emeralds and Dragon Balls but I would also like to share something I have read. There was a theory that loosely connected both of them in order to make the comparison and that is that the reason they are called Chaos Emeralds is because apparently dragons have been historically symbolized as chaos.

    Here are some articles about this:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_(cosmogony)

    https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/56042

    https://www.theosophytrust.org/705-dragon

    From the research I found that Tiamat seems to be the most associated with chaos:
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Tiamat

    https://www.worldhistory.org/Tiamat/

    https://arsgoetiademons.com/blogs/s...-the-primordial-goddess-of-chaos-and-creation

    I’d like to point out that Sonic 3 planned to include a dragon. There are 3 instances were the dragon was shown:

    1) In a concept art for Mushroom Hill Zone at the bottom of the page you can see a layout where there’s a mural with a dragon on it:
    https://web.archive.org/web/2023060....net/images/a/ad/Sonic3_Level8_ConceptArt.png

    2) A colored concept art of Super Sonic fighting the dragon seen in the MTV Rock the Rock special:
    https://web.archive.org/web/20230508192739if_/https://i.imgur.com/c1rkwKI.png

    https://web.archive.org/web/2024073...rf.net/images/4/4d/S3_Doomsday_ConceptArt.png
    Also note that the color of the dragon appears to be golden like Super Sonic

    3) The Japanese manual mentions the dragon. In it Knuckles thinks the crashed Death Egg is the egg of the dragon:
    Knuckles walks out of the altar, stunned.
    Then, as he gazed helplessly into the distance, he noticed something eerie appearing around the lake.
    Knuckles felt a shiver run down his spine when he saw the huge round egg-like object.
    "That big egg is the legendary dragon's..."
    The egg must be the one that brings misfortune to the island, as depicted in the legend on the altar of the Chaos Emeralds.

    https://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_3/Manuals

    It seems like the idea of the dragon eventually became Perfect Chaos in Sonic Adventure.
    [​IMG]
    It turns out that Naoto Ohshima was the one who designed Perfect Chaos as he shared this concept art on his Twitter account:
    https://web.archive.org/web/2023082...m/media/C8fxqANUMAESv5R?format=jpg&name=large

    https://web.archive.org/web/2021100...er.com/NaotoOhshima/status/848912772741988352

    More recently with Sonic Superstars the character of Trip becomes a golden dragon when all the Chaos Emeralds are collected for her.
    [​IMG]

    Year of the Dragon artwork by Ohshima:
    https://web.archive.org/web/2024100...m/media/GCr1Zsna0AAzeP5?format=jpg&name=large

    https://twitter.com/NaotoOhshima/status/1741474031839367642

    https://archive.ph/ORlfD

    Is it possible they went back to that initial golden dragon concept art from Sonic 3? They did reuse a piece of concept art for Sonic 1 depicting a golden landscape and distinctive loop for Golden Capital Zone

    Also Trip is a Sungazer Lizard and according to Wikipedia they are also known as the “giant dragon lizard”
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_girdled_lizard

    It is an intriguing theory and connection as to why the Chaos Emeralds have chaos as its name.
     
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  2. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    They wanted to make it look natural, so they gave him two tails that he could somehow rotate like propellers without getting them tangled? :psyduck:

    Yes, I do believe that Superstars (and SA1) took inspiration from the scrapped Sonic 3 dragon. Superstars was all about recycling scrapped concepts from the classic games, as shown with Golden Capital as mentioned, as well as the rabbit Sonic skin.
     
  3. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    (Sorry for the double post. The forum is glitching and won't let me edit my post. Feel free to merge.)

    I find it curious that Golden Capital and the rabbit are based on Ohshima ideas, yet the dragon was from Sonic 3, in which Ohshima didn't work. Could Ohshima have been somehow responsible for that idea too?

    We know that both Sonic 2 and CD reused ideas thrown around during the Sonic 1 development, back when Ohshima was with Sonic Team. Hence why they had similarities like time travel (if you count early Sonic 2) and a robot Sonic. Could the dragon be another early concept suggested during the Sonic 1 development, and it went on to inspire Sonic 3, SA1 and Superstars?

    Come to think of it, early Sonic 2 design documents state that there would have been a "last battle in space" after Neo Death Egg. Hmmm...
     
  4. Plorpus

    Plorpus

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    Oshima didn’t work on Sonic 3, but Iizuka did. He’s also the one behind the plot for Sonic Superstars so I have no doubt the concept was deliberately reused. I believe Iizuka also came up with Chaos but I’m not 100% sure about that part.
     
  5. dsmania

    dsmania

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    It's obviously in Spanish and subtitles transalation might not be the best, if you happen need some clarification on some part I can gladly help.
    Some timestamps at which he shows betas or talks about them: 7:30, 8:20, and 19:08.
    This video is dated 8 months ago, so is not just some ancient documentary, it's pretty fresh. And he has since started focusing more on retro stuff, quitting his previous job and focusing more on retro projects like a podcast and such. José Luis Sanz, was a writer at Hobby Consolas and other magazines of the Axel Springer Group in Spain, so he had access to a lot of stuff directly from all companies, thus I have no idea how easy or troublesome could be for him to share anything of these to be honest. The way he comments on this sounds to me (and this is a personal interpretation) like he would want to contribute to a museum or preservation initiative of some sort rather than via anonymous dumps or selling anything, specially if you consider that he's still in business.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2024
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  6. Antheraea

    Antheraea

    Bug Hunter Member
    that is interesting. the only character designer listed in the game for Chaos is Uekawa.
    upload_2024-10-2_9-38-43.png

    I had come across that while looking for the thing I originally wanted to post here, that Ohshima was the editor for the game's intro!
    upload_2024-10-2_9-40-21.png

    And additionally, he was the producer for the game's CG FMVs.
    upload_2024-10-2_9-39-59.png
     
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