Sonic the Hedgehog (2020) movie

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Dark Sonic, Dec 7, 2013.

  1. Mana

    Mana

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    You're the first person to share either of those opinions with me. What is Sonic to you exactly? Sonic has a variety of different styles and tones so there's no exact "style".

    It was fun and very energetic and I loved all the Sonic references the rappers were able to keep in.

    I guess it also helps that I'm a fan of all the artists as well but you're the first person to tell me the animated scene at the end was bad or outright hate the song.[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2020
  2. Wafer

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    Hard agree on both points here. Maybe I'm just old and crotchety, but I found the riddum and lyrics uninspiring, and frankly once you take those away, what's even left in a hip-hop song? The references felt very self-serving.

    (Aside: I do think that an opportunity was missed by not including an acoustic rendition of E.G.G.M.A.N. but that's just me wishlisting tbh)

    The animation made the cardinal sin of trying to appear like a Sonic game whilst not behaving like it in the slightest. Watch for the instant acceleration, the sprite scaling and Mario-style linear gravity. It's like if a five year old did a sprite animation in Flash.

    Don't even get me started on the fact that you'd get better sprites for each rapper at $50-a-pop from your favourite Twitter commission artist.
     
  3. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

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    But that's literally what Sonic's shoes/socks look like in the games. You didn't answer what "doesn't match" about them. Giving him fur looks better than having him be a smooth eel like the current game model. His spikes in the movie are just made out of actual quills. Making his quills giant tubes sticking out the back of his head would look stupid in a live-action movie.

    Sonic to me is first and foremost informed by Nakamura's soundtracks. Ranging from an orchestral and cinematic feel to more pop, rock and funk oriented sounds. Diverse and energetic styles that have always reminded me of STYX and other progressive rock groups of the '70s. All of the soundtracks through Heroes are still very much in the same vein, adding in different things here and there. For a "theme" of sorts, It Doesn't Matter from SA1 is perfect for a rock interpretation of Sonic's character.

    Speed Me Up feels like incredibly bland hiphop. No energy, no diversity of sound. The music doesn't give me any sense of character and it feels stylistically out of place for Sonic.

    Keep in mind that I'm not unbiased. I grew up with rock music from the '60s and '70s.

    As for the video, it looks like one of those awful photoshop DVD covers, but worse because it's moving, with just as poor animations. Most of the sprite art not taken from the games look like garbage (though the Jim Carrey sprite actually reminded me of X-Men for Sega Genesis). They apparently couldn't be bothered to put effort into a properly made sprite-based animation with a set resolution that actually moves on the pixels.

    EDIT: Sorry about the double post. I didn't want to string responses to two different conversations in the same post.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 2, 2020
  4. Gestalt

    Gestalt

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    They’re too thick and too heavy. Am I the only one noticing this?

    I know what you’re getting at. When the design doesn’t make sense that’s bad, it suits his character, and whatnot. But especially in Sonic’s case there’s always been a slight tendency to let things slide if they feel right. But say what you want, this just doesn’t feel right yet. Same goes for his quills.
     
  5. Dek Rollins

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    [​IMG]
    Look at his socks. They are almost exactly the same. The only difference aside from texture is that Sonic's legs are thin noodles in the game model, making the socks appear more loose. The movie socks aren't any thicker or heavier, his legs are just thicker to appear well proportioned in live-action.
     
  6. Gestalt

    Gestalt

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    It works because his normal shoes look like hard shells that have been wrapped around his feet, so they provide perfect protection from all kinds of dangerous stuff during top speed.

    Try imagining this: soap shoes + socks…

    Nope, not a fan.

    Or maybe I’m just biased, idk.
     
  7. Mana

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    The production isn't bland. They got one of the best producers in Hip Hop, Take a Trip, to do the production. He managed to make something fun and poppish that fits Wiz's style while also having an epic cinematic feel to the hook that reminds me of Sonic 06's "His World". If you think this is bland production it's pretty clear to me you don't listen to rap at all.

    Keep in mind, by the way, I'm an urban Zoomer so I grew up with Wiz and Yatchy and listen to them often and I know this is them at their best and I mean that as the biggest compliment possible.

    I also didn't grow up with 60's or 70's Rock and in no way do I associate that with Sonic to begin with because Sonic CD and Sonic 3 were both inspired by African American artists with Sonic 3 even just asking MJ to help produce the music. The Sonic music style has shown a love for black music in the past so this fit perfectly to me.

    And yeah, I doubt the people who made the end credits scene are gamers they just wanted to do something fun for people they knew were fans. The way you talk is like it had no heart to it when it clearly was done with a lot of research. They referenced the Blue Spheres from Sonic 3 which surprised me.

    Guess we just have a fundamental difference in what Sonic is and what kind of fan service deserves praise.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
  8. Wafer

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    Research =/= heart. And even then, the smallest amount of research would lead you to the knowledge that pixel art looks blocky not out of a stylistic choice, but because of the limited resolutions available at the time, and that if you're trying to emulate that style you should keep your sprites pixel aligned, and avoid rotation and scaling. Instead, they just threw a bunch of sprites at a canvas and manipulated them as they see fit.

    It follows, then, that the reason for this is that the people responsible for the animation are not pixel artists, and they were willfully too lazy to try to be.

    TBH I'm sure they put as much effort and "heart" into it as Paramount was willing to pay for after already having run over budget for the redesign.

    If you think this is anything BUT bland production, then I weep for what's become of rap and hip hop. The only praise I can level at the song is the rapid pace that the lyrics are delivered with, but even that feels like a backhanded insult when the lyrics have zero substance.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
  9. Mana

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    I don't know what any of that is and I don't care about any of it either. I loved the end credits scene. Which, looking around online, is the more common opinion.
     
  10. Wafer

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    oh no I'd hate to go against the "more common opinion" what if everyone laughs at me
     
  11. Mana

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    I would hate to dislike something because of uh "scaling". What if that's pretentious and an argument that wouldn't work for someone who could care less about any of those words you said.

    I love how you can't give me an example of what "good production" is instead "weeping" at what rap and hip hop has become even though the genre is more popular and dynamic than ever with more original production and layers to the music than ever. This song was catchy and fun and fast paced which is everything I feel Sonic is and needs to be.

    The lyrics weren't trying to have substance. Brother man, it's Sonic music. I don't listen to Sonic music for "depth" it was just a cool song with a bunch of popular rappers young people like with a few clever Sonic lines sprinkled in. Lil Yatchy's verse in particular was lovely to me because the way it felt like it entranced me into another world.

    This is like the third time you've come at me so I don't even want to come up with an ending paragraph so you'd have something else to complain about.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 2, 2020
  12. Wafer

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    Maybe it is pretentious, but that's my prerogative, because it's my opinion. You could've just accepted that we hold differing views, but you tried to convince me that my opinions on pixel art are less important because they are not shared by the majority. I haven't conformed with the majority out of fear for having a dissenting view since I was a teenager, and I ain't about to start now.
    Run DMC. Beastie Boys. The Qemists. Really any UK grime. Heck, for all I find gangster rap to be problematic, Dr Dre still knows how to lay down a decent beat and use a mixer, which is more than I can say for the talent behind Speed Me Up.

    I could go on, but I don't know when I'd stop.
     
  13. Mana

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    If that's your prerogative understand that it was something you were going to mention that might not be a strong argument with everyone. I don't know what any of those things are and I don't really want to either. You should probably figure out your audience before trying to convince someone something is bad with "scaling". You could have also not replied to my post with that whole "differing opinions" thing.

    None of those artists are anything like the people featured on Speed Me Up. It's pretty clear that you don't listen to modern hiphop at all or even like that type of sound to begin with considering the first thing you compare it with is artists from the 90's the average Zoomer only knows because their parents have mentioned them a few times. Dre is the only one of those to even have regularly used original production with the rest going for sample heavy material that has gotten more than played out, with samples being used as the backdrop for mostly original stuff these days.

    Song still goes hard. You're also doing this weird thing where you only quote and reply to a bit of my post to make an argument when my entire message makes an entire point so after this I think I'm done.
     
  14. Wafer

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    It's almost as though taste is subjective, isn't it? For what it's worth, your assessment is 100% on the money. I don't listen to modern hiphop because on the whole it suffers from poor production and lacks lyrical substance. But don't feel too bad, that's the case with the majority of modern music.

    You like the song, that's fine. I'll fight to the death for your right to an opinion. Just do us both a favour and don't treat your opinion like an objective truth or try to invalidate my opinions just because I don't keep up with the latest trends and don't agree with the majority.
     
  15. DigitalDuck

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    "Scaling" is far from a pretentious argument; sprites from different resolutions pasted together looks awful to a lot of people, myself included. It's not an uncommon opinion.

    Hell, we had a whole thread arguing about this very thing.
     
  16. Mana

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    Hey, song still go hard. Wasn't trying to invalidate you, if you disagreed with me in general there as always the option of not replying. Just saying.


    I used that word because I have no clue what it is and I still don't think it matters to the average person. I showed my dad the clip and he thought it was dope, I don't think scaling matters to most people. If they even know what it is because I sure don't.
     
  17. Dek Rollins

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    You're right, I don't listen to rap or hiphop at all for the most part. Regarding CD, that's mostly electronic music, with a lot of jazz and funk sounds. It's great composition, and the raps and melodies in the vocal themes are catchy and wonderful. S3&K is a mixed bag, but it carries over a lot of the pop, funk and atmospheric sounds, adding in the MJ influence. Not as strong as Nakamura's soundtracks, but not out of place entirely.

    Your point about "black music" seems a bit odd. You do realize that the history of black musicians isn't limited to rap and hiphop, right? Jazz, fusion, soul, rock & roll, etc., all this stuff was pioneered at least in-part by black musicians. Go listen to some Jimi Hendrix. But, I'm not even saying that 'modern' black musical influence has no place in the franchise. Knuckles was always associated with these sounds, and his music in the Adventure games is pretty cool.

    When I say "bland" I'm not saying it doesn't have a catchy rhythm or anything. I'm saying it's monotonous, and again, lacks character. I can remember the song in my head, but I couldn't tell you how it's supposed to progress and where the rhythms lead to. Sonic music has always had strong composition and instrumentation, and variation. Even the Knuckles raps have this. Speed Me Up doesn't really. Not sure why you keep bringing up the "production" either.

    About the video again, you seem to have been put off by Wafer's mention of scaling and rotation, so let's leave that (fairly simple) terminology on the floor. Have you seen Sonic For Hire? They use edited Sonic 2 sprites and animate them regardless of the resolution limitations in the original sprite work. This is fine for a comedy web series, and the sprites are actually well animated, but I'm just using it as an example. In an actual Mega Drive/Genesis with 16bit 240p graphics, sprite animations can't move like that. They have to move per-pixel in the set 240 line resolution. This is what makes classic/retro games look the way they do. Taking those limited resolution sprites and poorly animating them without restriction in a higher resolution space looks bad. It looks amateurish, and this is a 95 million dollar feature film we're talking about. And no, I don't think a lot of heart and care went into this animation. I think whoever was tasked with animating it went "hey this would be cool, and the fans would like this," etc., but probably didn't know a thing about how sprites in old games worked. Like I already said, it feels like a bad photoshop DVD cover in motion, with bad animation to boot.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2020
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  18. Mana

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    Yes I'm well aware that black artists have a lot of different genres they work within, I was just mentioning two Sonic games that had a primarily African American inspired sound. Micheal Jackson was a pop artist man so it's clear that there's a lot of diversity within the black artist community.

    But if this is all to agree with Wafer who had a confusing argument that involved quoting me about the song and then saying I was invalidating his right to dislike a song he already inherently would dislike because his idea of hip hop is from the 90's , while also picking and choosing parts of my posts to respond to, I'll just say this as a rebuttal.

    Song still go hard.

    And if you don't like the music video it's fine, I'm pretty sure when I brought up the song in the first place the video wasn't praised by me or even mentioned and I don't even watch the video with the song most of the time so I probably shouldn't have said anything because I didn't notice the rotations of the scalings in the first place. If it's lack of scaling made it horrible to you then I think that's fine.
     
  19. Wafer

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    @Mana I mean, if you say things like "I don't think scaling matters to most people" or "the more common opinion" or (lol) "my dad thought it was dope", that's an attempt to invalidate an opinion, regardless of whether you're socially aware enough to realize that's what you're doing. Same goes for "already inherently dislike". You're trying to say that because I would never like it, I should just shut up and let people laud praise on it uncontested? That my opinion is less important than that of someone who would "inherently" like it? Do you understand that this is a discussion forum?

    The stuff that I've described above is the main thrust of why I'm still having this debate with you. We could've agreed to disagree but you seem to think that discussion is all about agreeing, whether it's other people agreeing with you, or Dek agreeing with me. It's not a popularity contest, and believe me, I know I'd lose if it were.

    No, I didn't respond to every point you made. Why? Because lots of them relate to your perception. Really, when you describe a verse as "entrancing" or "cinematic", who am I to tell you that your perception of something is wrong, even if I disagree? Also, it would be fucking exhausting and potentially come off as rude to do a point-by-point rebuttal.

    Finally, I'm fairly certain that Dek doesn't give a single shit whether he agrees with me or not. That's individuality, buddy. Mindblowing, I know, that two strangers might share an opinion without having to be beaten around the head into conforming with what "most people" or your dad thinks.

    Now, I really am done with you, because you are thoroughly exhausting. You can join my ignore list with the other kids that don't understand the difference between a potentially popular opinion and an objective truth.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2020
  20. Mana

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    That's great, wish you had done that in the first place.

    Song still goes hard, btw.