Sonic sure has a lot of jumping abilities...

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Samurai Echidna, Mar 20, 2013.

  1. Samurai Echidna

    Samurai Echidna

    Member
    246
    0
    0
    Would the absence of the insta-shield in S3&K make the game more challenging in a negative or positive way? That's my thinking behind it. Back in the day, I would often forget it was there and play as if it wasn't. I think it does make the game more challenging in a positive way. Makes you more careful and more strategic with your moves. If I'm spin dashing or jumping, I'm all ready practically invisible.
     
  2. Midway the Echidna

    Midway the Echidna

    20
    0
    0
    Chicago, IL
    Java Arkanoid, codingcabana.net (in-progress)
    Personally, my favorite ability is the Flame Shield. The shield gives you amazing attack capabilities and instant acceleration when you need it, and protection from flamethrowers saved me far more times than the ability to breathe underwater.

    Speaking of which, how does the bubble shield give Sonic an unlimited supply of oxygen? There can only be a finite amount of air inside the bubble, and given that air normally only contains about 20.8% oxygen, and the volume of air inside the bubble can't be more than ~33 cubic feet of air. Sonic is just under 4'0", which makes the radius (r) of the spherical bubble ~2', and given the volume of a sphere V=(4/3)(pi)(r^3)= ~33 cubic feet. This equates to 7 cubic feet of oxygen at room temperature. This may be ~45min worth of oxygen, but it neglects the fact that Sonic throws Carbon Dioxide back into his breathing environment. By about 5 minutes later, the air Sonic breathes inside that bubble would be poisonous enough to render Sonic unconscious or at the very least, make him too light-headed and physically sick to move with the speed and athleticism he has in Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Long-term exposure (the whole game) to dangerously high levels of Carbon Dioxide could even kill Sonic. If he spent the whole game inside a bubble shield, he would die.

    EDIT: Holy crap, I just didn't know that's how you form (r)! I suppose ( c ) forms (c)...
     
  3. KeebeeNacho

    KeebeeNacho

    WORM BAGGED Member
    265
    0
    16
    USA
    I'm drawing something, not that you'll ever see it.
    He's also a bipedal blue hedgehog who defies the laws of physics on a regular basis and can breathe in space.


    So, y'know...
     
  4. GeneHF

    GeneHF

    SEGA-ier than you'll potentially ever be. Site Staff
    8,412
    29
    28
    Scenic Studiopolis
    Complete Global Conquest
    Sarcasm has a poor way of working on text.

    It's why :v: was brought in. Or :colbert:
     
  5. Candescence

    Candescence

    Member
    1,990
    7
    18
    Sydney, Australia
    3D Indie Stuff
    Insta-shield for me. It's a cool move. Homing attack can go die in a fire, it's a lazy crutch that especially has no place in a 2D game, and should've been replaced in 3D by something better.
     
  6. Midway the Echidna

    Midway the Echidna

    20
    0
    0
    Chicago, IL
    Java Arkanoid, codingcabana.net (in-progress)
    I know, I'm just being facetious. This is one of many entries in a recurring joke I share with friends (usually my roommate)- commenting on a bad tree in a burning forest.

    It's hard to convey tone in text. If only you could somehow yell with mock exasperation by typing, then this conversation would be hilarious.
     
  7. DaHog

    DaHog

    20
    0
    1
    Sonic fan-made cartoon and Possible 3D Sonic fangame
    Of course Sonic has a lot of jumping power-ups. He was based off of Mario, who jumps a lot and jumps very high.
     
  8. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

    Member
    2,218
    424
    63
    Chaotix barely had use for any ability outside wall climbing (and even then it was abused to high heaven to a point it wasn't lost it's charm). The levels were THAT bland.

    I guess it's more the fact there's little innovative to exploit about it, it doesn't alter the character's movement or momentum in any way, it's just a normal jump with a split second of invincibility. It's usage is powerful when used correctly, but it isn't particularly showy or allow much new in terms of level exploration (outside maybe 'glitching' through a very small blockade), so you can sort of understand why it didn't get the same hype as Tails' flying or Knuckles' gliding, climbing and smashing through rocks in the same game.

    Even for his shield moves, Vector makes them obsolete in Chaotix, and what's more can use them at once without fear of losing the ability after getting hit or even starting a new level.

    Wall jump is surprisingly effective though, especially in it's Crackers/Chaotix form, where's it's a lot quicker to pace upward with than the standard wall climb. It's probably more Mighty's move though (he needs SOMETHING).
     
  9. BystanderLC

    BystanderLC

    Member
    58
    0
    0
    *cough* Sonic Heroes.





    Anyone think of the Blue Tornado yet? As an attack, it was pretty lame, but movement-wise, that thing achieved a new way to play in Sonic Heroes. It ultimately lets me get through a lot of stages using only Sonic.
     
  10. Blivsey

    Blivsey

    Charismatic Sonicaholic Member
    Blue Tornado was handy, without a doubt. I agree the Homing Attack could work as an item-relegated powerup.

    + - Also, the Wall Jump was introduced in Unleashed. The move you were thinking of in the list is Triangle Jump.  
     
  11. Samurai Echidna

    Samurai Echidna

    Member
    246
    0
    0
    Eh, they are kind of synonymous. One's better in a 2D perspective, the other is better in a 3D perspective.
     
  12. Mercury

    Mercury

    His Name Is Sonic Tech Member
    It actively extracts oxygen from the water. Fish can do it, so why not?

    Breathing in space is debatable... in Sonic 2, one could say the Death Egg was in the upper atmosphere, and in S&K he dies in Doomsday when his rings run out, suggesting it's only Hyper Sonic who doesn't need to breathe. As for Death Egg in S&K, it's possible it retains some atmosphere.
     
  13. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

    Member
    13,942
    1,102
    93
    Working on my art!
    Back to the instashield debate since I missed it, I never liked it because I always was having more fun with the shields. If it was Sonic's only move I could see it's potential... but shields... they're fun. Of course in Generations 360 I always put the insta shield with my shield skill sets to add some Sonic 3 goodness, but that's really only for shits and giggles.

    Personally I'm a fan of double jumping and the homing attack, but I'd like to see all these things as shields.
     
  14. dsrb

    dsrb

    Member
    3,149
    0
    0
    Good points. Bear in mind that Super Sonic can get into Doomsday if you play Sonic & Knuckles alone... but then who does that? :v:

    And based on the available in-game evidence and biological facts, I'm going to have to assume that Super/Hyper power somehow substitutes oxygen as an electron acceptor for generating ATP. :P
     
  15. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

    Member
    2,218
    424
    63
    I think the shield abilities may have been better balanced if you had some sort of item manager, like for Mighty in Megamix. It seemed unfair that Sonic was pretty much rendered powerless whenever he got one hit or merely entered a level without the necessary monitors.

    As said though, Vector has all of Sonic's shield moves except the bounce effect upon dashing downward by default and in addition to that a wall climb ability and diagonal dash, so it still seems rather imbalanced.

    I could argue the insta shield would have been okay if alongside a proper level exploring ability like wall jump but as his sole move he seemed to limited.
     
  16. Tiddles

    Tiddles

    Diamond Dust Tech Member
    471
    0
    0
    Leicester, England
    Get in an accident and wake up in 1973
    Super Sonic can reach Doomsday in S3K too - just don't get all the Super Emeralds. Unlike transformations in regular gameplay, you'll even get Super Sonic in Doomsday if you started collecting Super Emeralds but didn't finish. The only way to miss it is by never having collected all seven chaos emeralds.

    And of course I have to chime in in favour of insta-shield. Most of the time I'd rather have a lightning shield for ring attraction and the extra mobility afforded by a double-jump, but double-jump is really boring and worthy, and insta-shield is just one of those classy moves that let you do classy things in the hands of a seasoned player, while being almost completely useless in the hands of a novice. I like that. There's not enough of that.

    Of course, in regular S3K, Sonic's best double-jump ability is being able to use abilities at all without turning Super/Hyper (when he has a shield). That outclasses anything Tails or Knuckles can do!

    I do agree that Mighty's item manager in Megamix is a great addition, as is the superpower of using all abilities at once - that really makes the shield abilities shine. The switching is maybe a bit fiddly compared to normal Sonic gameplay, but that's just fine by me. Style over speed, every time.
     
  17. Samurai Echidna

    Samurai Echidna

    Member
    246
    0
    0
    :ohdear: ... *raises hand*
     
  18. KeathalKrisom

    KeathalKrisom

    Member
    18
    0
    0
    I found it more fun with the insta-shield than the fire/water/thunder shields due to being able to dodge projectiles. It's especially rewarding when you insta-shield through the flame throwers in Lava Reef Zone Act 2, Hydrocity Act 1 Mini-boss I purposely get hit with my bubble shield so I can nab three to four hits on him before he lands on the spinning middle pillar and the satisfaction of jumping off a ceiling, insta-shielding to bypass the spikes of one of those Orbinauts in Launch Base Zone and then landing on the elevators right before the Knuckle's bombing cutscene. It's not mandatory but pulling off stuff like that is so satisfying and addictive. Abusing this ability makes it feel broken as hell.

    But to choose the best one? It all depends, if we had another Sonic3 and Knuckles where there are abilities that defines the characters, Knuckles could glide and climb walls, Tails can fly and swim, but Sonic? Other than its great offensive and situational defensive capabilities it doesn't give Sonic his own path which really bothers me about Sonic3&Knuckles more than it should. I would like Sonic to have his own exclusive paths disregarding that his two-tailed tag along can follow him.
    The homing attack wouldn't be all that great due to Tails having access to almost anywhere on the map.
     
  19. Palas

    Palas

    Don't lose your temper so quickly. Member
    419
    142
    43
    I might even be going a little off-topic, but I must point a function of the insta-shield that hasn't been mentioned.

    At first, it seems like it does nothing (which is one of the reasons it's hard to master), but it shows that the game responds to the command of tapping the jump button while on air. It doesn't really affect your movement, but piques one's interest. So, in a way, it anticipates the special effects of the shields and adds another layer to our learning curve without any kind of tutorial. It makes the abilities completely intuitive. That's why I'd pick it. I've never been able to master it, but this one little fuction is awesome.
     
  20. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

    Member
    2,218
    424
    63
    I think you pointed out my key problem with the insta shield, and in fact the large majority of Sonic's unique moves. They can be beneficial, but for the large part they won't add a new twist to how you progress the game, while Knux and Tails can use their moves to search around and try new paths they maybe missed the first time round, making it potentially a new game every time you play. Sonic is almost always limited to the main path, just it might be easier when you've mastered his move set to take out obstacles easier. Even his shields are just slightly spruced up jumps that Tails can surpass easily just be flying.

    Advance 2 toyed with things a little by giving him and Amy a 'butt slam' move to take down floors, but it was useful in all of a handful of areas. The homing attack and light speed dash can be useful in stretched out cases even Knuckles and Tails can't fly towards, but it's path is only good once due to it's reliance on a line of items.

    Sonic always seemed the most 'restricted' of the main three, I always thought there was less fun being limited to just the main path than having the ability to search around and find more exciting or convinient pathways.