I respect that position, and it can be true for a lot of genres (I'm not a fan of roguelikes for that reason, a bit). But I think Sonic is a fluid enough kind of game that it's not such an issue. For example-- this challenge we're talking about, which I do find engaging and I'm very happy to see people die at it, isn't harder (when it comes to gauging distances and executing a jump accordingly) than successfully jumping between two moving platforms. And while we haven't seen that in Bridge Island, I think we will. And if a player gets that good at jumping between moving platforms, they're more likely to deal with that specific gestalt. There is a lot being tested there, and in a unique way, but playing the game up until then does ask each of the skills required there a lot of times. But again, nothing wrong with having you get better at that specific challenge either. I'm not trying to say "game overs make you love the game" as much as "it can't be that bad, just works differently". I'm still not that good at videogames, and I remember being unable to get past the very first spring that shoots you towards the water in Sonic 1 8-bit, because there was a buzz bomber there too. It was a fairly trivial challenge, but I was just like. Four years old. So I get the frustration. However, I think @kazz brought up the narrative aspect of it that I think is pretty often overlooked. When I read @raphael_fc's story with the Death Egg boss, I saw two stories: one, of the boy who got fucked over by a difficult spike for more than 30 times. But two, the story of a boy who got so engrossed that he bothered to try it for 30 or more times and remembers the specific number of lives he had at the start of it until today. This sense of "wholeness" of a playthrough, that makes up a story that's so uniquely yours with the game, ironically transfers some of the focus to you. The number of tries isn't arbitrary: it's yours and depends on you. Personally, I'm into that. But that's me. But anyway, you guys don't like counted life systems. I get it. It's fair. The discussion was about them making a game different, and a game can't be both indifferent and worse for having lives at the same time. So I guess we're done with it: Superstars is different from Sonic 3.