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"Sonic Spitball" - a deconstruction of the franchise

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Azookara, Jan 26, 2015.

  1. Bringing Sonic into 3D (Sonic Spitball - Part 3) is on YouTube!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVKFRxgwSWE
     
  2. Josh

    Josh

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    I'm gonna give it the embed link:

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVKFRxgwSWE[/youtube]

    What a fantastic series. I've been waiting for this finale for a long time!
     
  3. TheKazeblade

    TheKazeblade

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    Brought it up in 'Other Knowledge,' but I'll re-post it here too:

     
  4. Felik

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    "control camera with the analog stick" and there he lost me
     
  5. eighttailedfox

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    I enjoyed his 3 part series.

    At the very least, I can use some of the things he discussed in my project. It was a nice watch.
     
  6. Azookara

    Azookara

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    I think some of the button placement and design he laid out was a little too convoluted or abstract for something as arcadey and simple as Sonic needs to be (especially the homing attack and how you use it) and that he has in mind level layouts that don't give much clarity on where to go like a 2D or more linear game would, but otherwise I think his ideas are pretty well laid out and a great plan. Especially his thought on stage progression, that stuff's good.

    I'm so glad he made this series though. It's been probably the most concise video review of the series to date.
     
  7. JaredAFX

    JaredAFX

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    I just finished watching Part 3. Not a fool-proof design, but what he was describing sounds like it could be a very solid game. I don't think they would ever make a main series console game with out voice acting ever again, nor do I think that the story would be that simple, but I really appreciate the gameplay he came up with. As he was describing it, I really honestly was picturing a 2D game in my head and I kind of chuckled when I realized what I was thinking of. I'm not sure how well this game would sell in today's world with shooting and action and all that stuff still being at the forefront, but I think if they were to make something like this with an exceptional amount of effort and solidity, maybe they could have something here.

    Of course, we still have to wait nine days for that supposed 25th anniversary announcement :v:
     
  8. Blast Brothers

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    I just finished binging these, and I'm honestly really, really impressed. This guy did a great job, and presented what could be, in my opinion, one of the best 3d interpretations of Sonic possible (almost). Now I just wanna play it //forums.sonicretro.org/public/style_emoticons/default/v.png
    If I ever pick up 3d game design (not likely), this will be the first big project I would probably work on, just to see if it would really work. although I still hope someone else does it first
     
  9. I just have a few things I have different views on.

    Since the levels themselves are going to be open playgrounds but still focused and consolidated, maybe only have the player be able to control the camera with the right thumbstick when standing still for first person view, then while moving, maybe have the camera be as fixed as possible with no player involvement so it won't be disorienting and convoluted to control with? I can't imagine trying to parkour up/down a wall at crazy speeds > homing attacking onto possibly moving enemies to reach higher and possibly moving platforms in the opposite direction for say, a secret area, (With an Xbox One controller) holding LB + RB + any face button while still managing to hold the right thumb stick to change the camera to get there, haha. It's possible, sure, but I don't think a "claw" hand position would be ideal for everyone to play.

    Also, (Again, with an Xbox One controller in mind) I'd just re map the homing attack to A, Insta shield to X, Parkour to the L/R bumper, rolling to the L/R Trigger and finally, have Spindash charging be L/R trigger + (tap) any face button. All of this for familiarity, being easy on the hands and for consistency's sake. I feel like having to hold the parkour button to activate another move just over complicate things and set arbitrary rules, which goes against his "clear cut and simple" philosophy. Not only that, he's only thinking with Sonic in mind. What if we threw Tails into the mix? They share the same button scheme since they essentially play the same except for when they use their own unique ability. How would you then translate Tails control scheme seamlessly using Shay's button layout? I can't imagine having to press the LB + RB just to fly or just awkwardly have Tails suddenly have his controls akin to the classic button layout.

    For Shay's idea of spin dash charging, you just hold the R trigger. On this point, I wish Shay elaborated on Analog vs Digital triggers to sell his idea on a proper spin dash more so. Say if the triggers were digital. The player really wouldn't have control of how much he/she wants to burst after spin dashing in this scenario, since obviously you'll always reach max rev speed holding down the trigger per second, and it'll lack depth as opposed to say, using analog triggers where you can then gauge how much you want to burst out of spin dashing by how much you've held down onto the the triggers. But theoretically, if this game were made with our current gen in mind, then you'd have to worry about which system to get it for, which is why I'd opt for tapping the face buttons + holding the trigger... just to be safe and get that depth for all current consoles.

    Everything else Shay elaborated as far as how a level could be a means to set a mood and convey the story, how bosses work and etc is freaking spot on. Like as if he tapped into my very being, haha. Now to watch part 1 and 2 :)
     
  10. Taylor

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    I know bumping old threads are frowned upon but I thought it was worth doing so in this case. The videos have been unlisted since the creator has gotten constant harassment about it over the years. Shame. I have a huge soft spot for these videos because it was the first time I saw a Youtube video actually analyze a game competently. It's funny that some of the posts back then were put off by the 1:30 running time, as now its not uncommon for "deep dive" videos to be that long or even longer.

    For anyone who hasn't watched them but are curious, the main one that I liked was Part 1, which analyzed gameplay (the other parts were about aesthetics and the creator's ideal Sonic game). The summary of Part 1 was:

    Genesis games: Good. If you use this forum you probably don't need me to repeat the arguments here : P
    Adventure 1&2: A strong attempt at porting Sonic gameplay to 3D that suffered from a poor camera, too much automation, and too many things mapped to the B button. 3D Sonic got worse after this so he skipped to Boost
    Boost games: Style over substance, lacks the nuanced gameplay of the previous games, but can still offer shallow, arcade-y fun
    Lost World: Absolute mess, Sonic has a variety of different moves that don't gel together

    I don't remember Part 2 (aesthetics) as much, but I do remember him making the whole "Green Eyes" backlash sound a bit reasonable. Sonic having black eyes can make him look more determined and focused, while the green eyes makes him look more cutesy and innocent
     
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  11. Why was he getting harassed?
     
  12. Palas

    Palas

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    Huh. Why? I couldn't watch it, but it's always sad to see creators being harassed over their analytical work.
     
  13. Taylor

    Taylor

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    He talks about why he unlisted the videos but doesn't go into detail about the harassment: https://x.com/shoogles_/status/1800172953184903495

    I'm curious as to what he was getting harassed about, too. Even when criticizing something, he was pretty respectful of it. The only time I remember him actually being hateful towards something was Lost World, and I don't think that game has defenders like that : P
     
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  14. I've noticed that people who are huge fans of the modern games kind of resent that video for feeling it isn't being fair to those games, so that might be it.


    Shame, those videos were extremely informative and now they're lost because fans don't know how to act.
     
  15. Palas

    Palas

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    I wish there was a way for more involved forms of discourse to be preserved. It's a part of fan culture that is very important to me and, I think, is extremely fertile ground for serious game design discussion -- because Sonic as a cultural product is popular and controversial enough to be more than an amplifier for the current trends in game design. We were discussing the potential merits of friction like 15 years ago, and now it has become a mainstream topic for debate! And, having such an idiosyncratic history, the franchise lends itself to careful examination of game design as a discipline that's more than simple product engineering.

    But it isn't more worth it than the creator's mental wellbeing, so I hope they get better and, maybe in the future, makes the content available in some other way.
     
  16. Yea, Shay was going to do a Sonic Adventure 2 video, but scrapped that idea knowing full well the reactions he'd get for it.


    Kind of sucks that there are only a small number of people in this fandom that are mature enough to handle discussions like this without taking it to heart, especially with the likes of Twitter being so popular.


    Same thing happened with Pariah695, who basically quit Twitter because he got tired of being harassed about his videos.
     
  17. Snowbound

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    The behavior of people on twitter in general is an issue. Folks want to be snide assholes for likes. You can’t have nuanced conversations with a character limit. These factors makes “Sonic discourse” on twitter absolutely dreadful. Especially given how fractured the sonic fan base is. God forbid someone like Satam AND the games. Or maybe they prefer Fleetway over both of these. We can’t have a different of opinion. Let’s make a snide quote tweet about how that user’s favorite characters are never coming back. Or Let’s be positive about the newest sonic media 24/7 while also bitching about Ian Flynn every time the “lore” is disturbed… sigh

    I’m legitimately alarmed by how social media is affecting our youth. Then again what do I know… I’m an old fogey still posting on message boards. But to quote Peter Gabriel (who’s associated with the non-Sega Genesis) “I know what I like and I like what I know”. What I like is this forum and I have no intention to talk about Sonic in other online spaces.
     
  18. Starduster

    Starduster

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    Damn, that’s a real shame. I remember loving those videos way back in the day and, even if you don’t agree with everything said in them, they’re a great watch for developing an analytical eye with regards to Sonic gameplay. A whole lot of people across the internet really could stand to learn to just leave their ego at the door when it comes to these discussions. That said, I don’t think this issue is helped by certain prolific classic purists who are just as obstinate as Adventure diehards and boost lovers. Granted Shay’s not a part of that, but I understand why the inferiority complex exists.
     
  19. penBorefield

    penBorefield

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    That's endless negativity to you.
     
  20. KaiGCS

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    I'd really like it if complete sacks of dogshit would stop bullying my favorite people in the fandom out of it.