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"Sonic Spitball" - a deconstruction of the franchise

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Azookara, Jan 26, 2015.

  1. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    Roger's rants aren't bad, but they aren't that great either, to me. He makes some good points every now and then, but he's obviously biased for and against a lot of things (particularly stating SA2 is the pinnacle of the franchise over and over or something), and feels the need to drag the subject of the fanbase/community and other far-out things into the big picture too much. Plus, he's never really went down on discussing game design properly, just kind of vague notions of it without much elaboration or understanding behind what makes the game design tick.

    All that and he's a bit on the abrasive and loud side from what I can tell, and his show depends on gimmicks a lot, which makes it hard for me to stick to. In short, I find him too biased and not well enough knowledged on game design to say he's even a contender for this video.

    I think he meant that as in that it was a lot of stuff the game practically required/forced you to use. Every face button was and is necessary in the boost games just to maneuver Sonic properly (boost is required for fast, bumpers and triggers for dodging and turning, stomping for a dead halt, sliding for going through low spaces, etc), while the only things you need in the original gameplay style is run-jump-roll (and sort of the Spin Dash and Homing Attack, which are extensions of rolling and jumping, respectively).

    The other moves are mostly optional or additional and don't really make a difference to what the game requires from you, bar those one or two sections in later areas of SA2 that forced you to use the Light Dash, but I think that sort of attaches to criticisms of SA2's gameplay as well.
     
  2. SF94

    SF94

    Tech Member
    I suppose you guys are right, but even after that's cleared up, it seems like my point still holds up here.

    SA2 has more required actions than just the light dash. Buggy bypasses notwithstanding, the somersault and bounce in Sonic's case are absolutely required to at the very least complete the game, even if the bounce was only really required in one instance... much like the light dash. Sort of an artificial requirement in the sense that the level design really doesn't make good use of the abilities, but requirements none the less. So although certainly less frequent, I feel like SA2 with actions distributed across buttons would be just as complex. Although I do dislike it, maybe having the actions on one button lends well to SA2's simplicity in that regard...

    Not really a big deal one way or the other though, I just thought it was an interesting point.
     
  3. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    Like said, I think he brought up not liking how SA2 handled it either, and I can't say I disagree with him. I'm completely on board with how redundant the somersault was when rolling had existed for years at that point and did everything somersaulting could and way more. :v:

    Still, I think spreading out those moves to different set ups would be best. Y for light dash, A + X for bounce attack, picking up or dropping objects on B, and yeah there you go. Still simple but spread across the face buttons. Probably more of what he had in mind.
     
  4. ...Sorry?


    Anyway, for the sake of not double posting... I really enjoyed the video. He's basically brought up every single thing non sonic fans would brush off as nitpicking (and coincidentally, everything I've ever really wanted to talk about in my old, weak ass videos from back in the days of guys like Nicochi and Kuta.)

    I'm sick of "vidya game design philosophy gurus" like Egoraptor actively trying to piss off Sonic fans at every turn and not considering the series worth giving the same analysis as games like Megaman X and Zelda and so on. It's about time someone harmless like "Shaymay" noticed the finer details and gave the blue blur some well-earned respect.
     
  5. Sorry, I didn't mean to say anything bad about you. I was just saying that everyone has his own way of expressing how he feels about the current quality of the Sonic games, etc. I CAN be wrong sometimes. And yeah, I forgot how old your Sonic reviews were. Opinions can change over time after all. And I agree about Egoraptor. I'm not too big of a fan of him either.
     

  6. Oh, okay.
     
  7. Can't wait for the next parts. I do find it odd how there was no mention of Sonic Heroes whatsoever as the game mechanics and gameplay style are VASTLY different than the Adventure series as now you are controlling three characters in stages that somewhat try to complement each characters abilities (I say somewhat as the execution was horrible as the characters control is absolutely atrocious a majority of the time). I loved how he emphasized the camera issues in Colors and Generations (I personally was astonished by the fact that at this point they still hadn't done that) that don't allow for much back-tracking, let alone the fact the a majority of the level design doesn't allow that to begin with, which I have said time and time again is an aspect that needs to change.
     
  8. Nova

    Nova

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    God forbid a YouTube personality dislike the Sonic series

    It's not like they have a perfectly good reason to do so, right guys

    right

    right
     
  9. Felik

    Felik

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    =
     
  10. GeneHF

    GeneHF

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    The Sonic community DOES have a good penchant of doing that though.

    Green eyes, anyone?

    Blue arms?

    CAN I GET A PHYSICS?
     
  11. LordOfSquad

    LordOfSquad

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    One of those is worth complaining about though, to be fair. If tomorrow they released Sonic 5 with true-to-the-original physics and capable level design, featuring Sonic looking like a furry version of the offspring of Steve Buscemi and Shelly Duvall, wearing a fedora and full-body spandex suit (with crotch bulge), WITH blue arms AND green eyes, I'd buy five copies.
     
  12. TheKazeblade

    TheKazeblade

    "Our Life is More than a Side-Effect" Member
    May all your dreams come true ~<3

    [​IMG]
     
  13. MamboCat

    MamboCat

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    To bring this back to topic.. :p

    I'm a friend of Shay's from the STCO forum but I have to say after watching this twice, and watching his other videos on Shay Says and Game Pie, that I think he's done a good job.

    He has a knack with words, putting together arguments that I just could not help but nod along in agreement. In this case, I think he's hit the nail on the head about many things plagueing the Sonic games (not so much the franchise as a whole; people seem to still like the comics, and the Boom cartoon seems to be going down OK. Better than the games, anyway!!), things that I kinda knew and felt in the back of my head but didn't really know how to put it. I saw the massive difference in tone and style when I first played SA2, after a loooong break away from the series (my last game before then was 3D Blast/Flickies Island) but apart from being in 3D and having voice acting, I just couldn't put my finger on it. At the time I think I might have said Sonic had been Nintendoised, but that of course is complete BS! :D

    Shay just has a skill of putting things in such a way that is clear, and he doesn't get over-emotional over it. It's a calm, concise argument based on the material and it's analysis. It's almost scientific in its execution. This is not to say I don't like displaying emotional attachment; Clement's Sonic 06 review is great because of how much he emotes his displeasure in playing it; he might as well have screamed I HATE THIS HEDGEHOG! for three hours! But with Shay's video, I feel like I am watching something of substance, something that will be easily accessible by non-Sonic fans, if they care enough to watch it!
     
  14. LordOfSquad

    LordOfSquad

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    ORIGINAL DESIGN DO NOT STEAL

    [​IMG]
     
  15. TheKazeblade

    TheKazeblade

    "Our Life is More than a Side-Effect" Member
    What have we become
     
  16. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    Yeah, though this video really isn't the place where it's happening. :v:
     
  17. winterhell

    winterhell

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    I'd LOVE a Neil deGrasse Tyson Robotnik
     
  18. Zephyr

    Zephyr

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    Bump because part 2 is up:


    Only at 47 minutes in, but I have to disagree with the notion that setting something on Earth necessarily makes it more jarring for fantastical things to happen. Dragon Ball is set on Earth, and all kinds of crazy shit exists there. Just because it's Earth doesn't mean it can't be a fantasy Earth. It's possible he's just about to bring that up though, we'll see.

    He also seems mistakenly under the impression that Robotnik was renamed Eggman and that Sonic was relocated to Earth, when in fact (I'm pretty sure) they were merely aspects of the Japanese side of the story that were maintained during the creation of the "international canon" that Sonic Adventure brought us. Unless he's just trying to speak for the way the "canon" was generally portrayed in the west. Disregard, I typed this JUST before he acknowledged all of this. :v:

    Other than that, fully agreeable critique to me so far.
     
  19. Skyler

    Skyler

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    There's a lot that I agree with. At the same time, though, a lot of the either obscure or obvious details led me to ask, "So what?"
     
  20. VectorCNC

    VectorCNC

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    Really enjoyed this. I agree with basically everything he said. It's long, but I think that was necessary to delineate such a confounding multi-decade series. I love how he explained how lost the logic is. Sonic on Earth, the lack of a common narrative, Robotnik as second fiddle, etc. etc. These are all issues I've had for a long time myself, while they haven't remained at the forefront of my mind over the years, they all played their part ratcheting up my dissatisfaction. You simply get to a point where there is no coherent assemblage to be identified and appreciated (last Sonic game I purchased was Generations and before that Sonic Adventure 2). That's why most of us have simply had to draw a line in the sand and say, "this. Everything up to this point, and fuck the rest of it" I've said before that I wish studio Ghibli would help Sonic Team out, not necessarily from a design standpoint, but rather from a sociological stand point, a develop a logic to the world.

    At this point it is likely impossible to reconcile the multiplicity of Sonic universes. But the solution could be fairly simple and a lot of us have been saying it for a decade and longer. 2 Sonic Branches, 1 as 2D platformer, the other as 3D racing, aka classic and modern. It's works for Mario after all.

    Now when someone says, "Sonic Fans are unappeasable", you can respond, "have 2 hours to spare? THIS" *posts link....

    As to what to do with all the factions of sonic fans, the Classicists can go to 2D and modern to 3D, if they must. Finally, in my admittedly biased opinion, obviously the classic era is where the series must return to if there is to be a reformation. We have proven ourselves to be the most ardent, dare I say not just because of nostaligia, but because there was something actually there which was worthy of our devotion, that never really dies. All this modern stuff is so watered down and patronizing. It doesn't have any truly original content to behold. There is almost nothing there to salvage in terms of lore. I rest my case.