Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Mustapha, Jun 23, 2022.
In my mind right now just was born an strange think:
What if SEGA hasn't 1103 proto tracks sources?
Have been saying exactly this for a while myself - since the prototype was never returned, it's entirely possible that SEGA may no longer have a copy in their archives. Whatever build they took the music used in Origins from may genuinely be the latest pre-MJ build that still exists in their internal archives, which would explain why even way back in 1997 - only a few years after the game's original release - it seems to have been used as reference for the music in Sonic & Knuckles Collection. This is why it's really important that SEGA is made aware of the build's existence if there's any hope of the more complete 1103 tracks being patched in in future - they can't use it if they don't know it exists...!
Even if they lost a physical copy of a particular prototype, I find it hard to believe that they don't have any digital repository of the assets. Case in point, actually from Sonic 3: the special stage music has been recycled from that unreleased Segasonic game.
They hasn't S1 tts build, and S1 source code. maybe SEGA hasn't proto music as binary, or code, or they has it, but it in deep archives, where is wery hard to find something
Several of the tracks from that game turned up in other places though - wasn't the prevailing theory that they were taken from some sort of internal SEGA music repository?
That's exactly what I was trying to say. Even if they don't have a particular prototype anymore, I'm sure that they still have the individual assets somewhere.
But let's assume for a moment that they indeed lost both the prototype and the repository, nothing prevented them from downloading the rom and flashing it on some kind of cart if they wanted to record the audio from actual hardware. There's no way they didn't know about the rom, in fact many speculated that Sega finally greenlit a Sonic 3 rerelease because a rom with the alternate songs surfaced.
If they indeed used a different prototype to record the audio, they did that for reasons we can't understand, like many of the other questionable choices they did in Origins.
I'm not going to give them the benefit of the doubt, the music wasn't a mistake happened by chance, it was deliberate. Why, we'll never know.
I'd argue the logic doesn't hold up as well as it seemed to at the time - the speculation was simply because the timeframes seemed to line up, with the remaster finally being commissioned well after the protype had been recovered. However, that speculation was made in the full expectation that the 1103 soundtrack would be used as-is in Origins itself. There's no proof anyone at SEGA of Japan is aware of the prototype's rediscovery, and I'd argue the use of earlier versions of the tracks actually suggests the opposite - that at least within the internal Origins development team, nobody was aware that a more complete version than the one they sourced the music from existed.
Sega don’t seem to be good at keeping things. We've heard they've lost the source code of various games from the 90s. That's quite a big blunder to make.
Like Mastered Realm has mentioned, there may be doubts from Sega of Japan of authenticity on the ROM being legit, hence why they don't just download 1103's music off the internet and use it.
Happened to me... Do I just chuck the whole save file? At least MD&R's unaffected as it doesn't include stuff like multiplayer levels and Classic/Mirror Mode have their own save of the Time Attack.
That was pretty normal for the industry as a whole at the time.
This tweet from Stealth has really been messing with my brain:
He himself stated that the replacement tracks were “unpolished in the Sonic 3 prototype”.
This, at least to me, indicates that there was some awareness from SEGA of the 1103 versions, but here’s what doesn’t make sense: if SEGA supposedly deemed the 1103 cues “unpolished” for use in Origins, how did they come to the conclusion that what they had in their archives was more polished? (since an EARLIER prototype was used as basis for the Origins tracks)
What we got in Origins could be attributed to one of these reasons:
1) SEGA simply didn’t have the 11/3 prototype in their archives and/or was not aware it still existed (highly likely)
2) They didn’t want to go through the effort of contacting Hidden Palace to use the cartridge (likely), which leads to..
3) Since the prototype was unofficially leaked, it automatically eliminated the chance to use it in a official capacity (neutral)
4) They think the prototype is fake?? (Extremely unlikely)
It also makes me wonder if Stealth tweeted it like that for PR reasons. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.
Now I hate thinking about missed opportunities, but not going with the 11/3 cues was a missed opportunity to make things better.
Can they still right the wrong? Yes.. but I highly doubt they will. Which also leads to the future of Sonic 3 re-releases: are they going to hack either the Origins versions or the 1103 versions into the original ROM? Because if that is the case for one, I feel it has to be done for the other in order to be more cohesive and organized.
5) SOA were probably told Jun Senoue would handle the soundtrack and Stealth probably didn't hear the final results until we got it (remember this is an SOJ product).
Jun surely oversaw the recordings and he did make the super theme, so he did handle the OST production, but not in the way people expected.
This doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I would sooner believe that, if the tracks used in Origins aren't primarily based on the original demos but an implemented arrangement from an earlier proto, they just don't have access to the 1103 build at all. Putting it on Hidden Palace doesn't actually make the content of the rom public domain.
The 100,000 point Time Bonus that you get from clearing an act in exactly 9:59 seems to be missing in Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Tested on Switch version, likely missing on all platforms.
Also, Carnival Night Zone is atrocious to clear in this version. It is WAY too easy to get crushed by barrels or spikes littered throughout the level, even during those steep slope sections that encourage the player to reach high speeds. I don't recall it being like this in the original.
Definitely finding this to be the case even post patch - I feel like I had more issues on my initial Story Mode playthrough, but going through as Tails I can't seem to hit the switch to turn the lights back on in Act 2 without getting immediately crushed by the adjacent vertical spikes, which are supposed to just provide a barrier to stop you missing the switch. It wouldn't be so bad if dying didn't take me all the way back to just before Knuckles turns the lights off in the first place! No idea how I resolved this back when I did Story Mode, and it obviously it wasn't an issue on my Knuckles playthrough due to the different route he takes. Gave up for the time being, but will try holding down so I immediately roll when landing on the switch next time and see if that helps. Heaven help me if it's still an issue when I get around to a Sonic alone playthrough...!
EDIT: Tried it when able, and it did indeed work, though not as I expected - stopped me dead on the switch rather than making me roll under the spikes as I'd hoped. It worked either way though, so will try to remember that for future playthroughs.
Have yet to search to see if it has previously been mentioned recently enough, but a couple nights ago we encountered an amusing glitch in story mode. I beat the Metropolis boss rather quickly, perhaps too quickly considering that it glitched out, and the defeated Eggman froze in his flaming and damaging state. I waited a couple minutes, documenting the duration via screenshots, to see if it would resolve itself before resolving to become an hero and just beat it again in the hopes that it would actually clear next time. It did. I am curious to see if others have encountered this and to pin down any specific triggers.
Oh yeah, probably worth mentioning that zero rings were held.
The timing of Angel Island Act 2's boss (coming out of the waterfall, going behind it, moving speed/pattern), is so different here. I can no longer do an 8 hit on the left without dying (because Eggman is vulnerable for less time), and he doesn't pause slightly before moving. He also doesn't pause before firing, either. It's feels like such small changes, but it's enough to be noticeable to me.
Carnival Night Zone Act 1's mini boss still has 6 hit points and not 4. This is incredibly jarring to me, as the spinning top is much more susceptible to killing you by crushing (even when Super/Hyper), and it also makes the fight longer. If someone came into this as their first play through of Sonic 3, I can definitely see this is a crunch point (no pun intended).
I've been crushed by the Sandopolis Zone Act 2's boss so many times now by jumping at him with Super/Hyper and just standing there while the damage piles on. This never used to happen, and is just frustrating. I've also managed to get behind him with a well timed jump, which really shouldn't ever happen. I restarted the level at this point. (I should have waited, though. I wonder if the fast walk backwards is still here?)
There's also a ton of minor flourishes missing, too. First example I can think of is the Death Egg Robot at the end of Death Egg Zone Act 2, during the first phase. The hands move in an arc towards you. When they stop, and before the fingers smash down, they are supposed to raise slightly, so you know they are going to. They don't here; they just smash down without warning. This has thrown off my timing quite a bit.
I'm tempted to play through again, and note the issues/differences. It's surprising how many things aren't quite right compared to the original.
Interesting issue in Launch Base Act 1 - as Tails, you can easily fly up the inside of the building Knuckles bombs instead of taking the lifts, and doing so means Knuckles' cutscene never activates. This in itself isn't an issue as the game allows you to proceed to the boss as normal. If, however, you reach Knuckles in this way and then double back and jump into the lift, Knuckles still doesn't activate when you reach him but you remain frozen in place waiting for the cutscene, essentially softlocking the game.
No idea whether you just have to reach Knuckles without taking the lift, or actually pass him before doubling back for this to work - I did the latter, as I'd managed to collapse the platforms on either side of him before heading back to take the lift.
More S3&K problems:
Playing Sky Sanctuary in Anniversary Mode, when you reach the warp right before the final Mecha Sonic fight there is a small gap at the far right of the screen that you can accidentally fall into if you run too fast. This was not possible in the original due to the 4:3 format cutting that section of the map off.
In the fight against Knuckles in Hidden Palace Zone, there is a chance that you can get softlocked after defeating him. When the cutscene triggers and Knuckles runs off to confront Eggman, the camera does not prompt you to follow and you are just stuck in that one room indefinitely. I am not exactly sure what causes this glitch, however I've found that the chances are extra high if you defeat Knuckles in a powered up state, such as Super/Hyper Sonic, or under the effects of the Invincibility and Speed Shoes boxes you can pick up in the room prior.
This may have been already mentioned, but as of Version 1.4.0 the bug in Marble Garden Zone Act 1 where the miniboss' falling debris remains in the stage indefinitely still hasn't been fixed.
I have one more thing that isn't really a glitch, more of an oddity/observation. The original Sonic 3 & Knuckles replaced all Sonic 3 exclusive tracks/jingles with their Sonic & Knuckles versions (Invincibility theme, Knuckles' theme, miniboss theme, etc.). This fact remains true for Origins, but with 2 exceptions:
In Anniversary Mode only; since lives aren't a thing, obtaining a coin uses the original Sonic 3 1up jingle instead. That's kinda neat.
Strangely, the title screen music is the original Sonic 3 title theme, rather than the Sonic & Knuckles title theme. This is a shame because I prefer the S&K title music. And while music preference is subjective, it would have made more sense to use the S&K title because there are other tracks in the game that are reprises of that theme, specifically the Invincibility Theme, the Big Arms clear theme, and the newly created Super Sonic theme. So its odd that its the OG Sonic 3 title instead. There is a missed opportunity to have the "Sonic 3 mode" cheat also revert the music to its Sonic 3 exclusives for those that prefer the original themes. And while we're on the topic of cheat codes, I would love to have a "Sonic & Knuckles" mode cheat that changes the title graphics to its Sonic & Knuckles appearance. I really liked that screen of Sonic and Knuckles side-by-side with the Death Egg crashed in the background.
It's indeed now missing the "title theme + credits reprise" of the other games in the collection (counting SCD's US soundtrack). Though it might have been to either preserve the original intended theme for the S3 title screen or to make both S3/S&K themes a part of the experience. Like, even the main theme of the game is being "locked-on". Though maybe they could have specifically changed the Big Arm clear to S3's theme to further that.
I'm guessing the problem with including a toggle for S3/S&K themes is to do with the whole Micheal Jackson music removal, which of course affects the Knuckles and Mini-boss themes. But more specifically, it removes a unique difference between soundtracks as S3's non-MJ Mini-boss theme was the one that was used in S&K. So there's less incentive to make a specific toggle for it, while the non-MJ S3 Knuckles theme currently isn't even in Origins whatsoever, not even in the museum.
Maybe it's also to do with how Origins goes out of its way to not split up S3 and S&K anymore? We have a code for S3 differences but it doesn't go deeper than the title screen and cards (except for crashing the slot machine bonus stage...), when Stealth's original S3&K mobile pitch made a big deal out of offering the different forms of the game as their own level selects. So even the cheat codes that are allowed to do weirder stuff not allowed in the main game experience like fill the levels with banana item boxes aren't allowed to differentiate between S3/S&K too much, unless each specific different aspect between the games get their own cheat codes down the line as well (title screens, themes, level layouts, game lengths...).
EDIT: I've listed a bunch of issues I've found in the game in a chart I made, but it's uh, pretty messy...
Separate names with a comma.