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Sonic Origins Collection - General Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by HEDGESMFG, May 27, 2021.

  1. Antheraea

    Antheraea

    Bug Hunter Member
    tbh, the grousing of the special stage changes bothers me, because it's not just Sonic 1 that got changes. Sonic CD's are harder because of their improved framerate while Sonic 2's are easier. Are these changes from the original also objectionable because they're different from the originals...?
     
  2. Yash

    Yash

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    True that it is debatable, as we've seen within this thread, I suppose.

    I will say I've noticed the occasional quirks in the mobile ports (feels like it's a lot easier to get crushed by moving platforms in situations that were once more generous tight squeezes, example that always comes to mind for me are the moving blocks in Spring Yard) but nothing has ever risen to how off it feels in say, Mario All-Stars' version of Mario 1 with the wonky brick-breaking physics.
     
  3. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    I think more people are going to be excited that the classics have been brought up to modern standards than there'll be people disappointed that they can't play the original versions of the games, flaws, bugs and all.

    I mean if you realllllyyy are going to get that much into authenticity then you might as well hunt down a Genesis and a Sega CD and play the game on its original intended hardware. Other than that, well emulation is available, Sonic 1 and 2 are available on the Switch in their more "pure" forms via AM2, and all the older collections that are just emulated versions of the old games exist still. Gems collection's Sonic CD I believe was based off the 1996 PC port.

    Idk I stopped giving a crap about game authenticity after like my 100th playthrough of Sonic 3 & Knuckles. Been there, done that, can basically play it blind folded. So bring on the fresh coat of paint and extras I say.

    Also in regards to the whole coins/lives thing, when's the last time any of us have game overed a Classic Sonic game? I say good riddance. That being said I wonder how continues will work now. Will they just be scrapped all together or now just give you 3 coins?

    And some may disagree with this but I don't see how that Mystic Cave pit that just trapped you in spike hell is objectively better than what they did with it in the remake. It wasn't good level design and I'll die on that hill (least they could have done was like put in a tunnel to the next pit or something the spike pit was just kinda shit)
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2022
  4. Antheraea

    Antheraea

    Bug Hunter Member
    Hell the ROMs of the original versions (by that I mean, Sonic 1 is literally the version with the slope sprite rendering bug and the spike bug) are available on Steam for pennies, and can be run in any emulator. If you want to play the classics as they were, with more responsive controls than can be found in most of Sega's official console compilations, they're right there.

    But personally, I prefer a better gameplay experience. The originals are great for preservation, but I like widescreen, I like less janky special stages, I like better handling, 60 FPS, etc..
     
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  5. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    Actually I was talking from Sega's POV. I couldn't care less about new releases of emulated versions myself when I've been emulating these games for decades. But Sega obviously sees the market in more accurate versions, seeing how they implemented classic mode.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2022
  6. Zephyr

    Zephyr

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    Limited lives and continues feed into the gameplay loop of getting rings, going into bonus stages, going into special stages, etc. They give those things additional functional purpose. I guess the coins give them a new "additional functional purpose" in place of the old, but that function is external to the game itself.

    It's lame to have to choose between the actual full gameplay loop of the games and the quality of life improvements. Like, I'll live, but it'd be a lot nicer to have the option of playing the original gameplay loop with quality of life improvements.
     
  7. Flare

    Flare

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    Who knows they may just add a toggle down the line... It may also be there but they are not advertising it, who knows at this stage what will differ.


    I will say the gameplay loop of getting rings is still there, you still need them. That loop isn't taken away.

    What has been replaced would be 100 = new life. But who knows at the moment what a death means, does it take away some coins? Therefore still having the gameplay loop of be careful if you want rewards.

    In S3&K ... if you die, completely and you have no continues... what happens since there are save files. I haven't been in that situation before. In which case, if all it does it take you to the start of that 'zone'... lives were already showing their age in 1994.

    I'm fine with coins, I would much rather be rewarded for doing good than hindered for being bad. But I do understand people want to play normal Sonic 1 but in widescreen... and I can imagine with enough outcry that will be a toggle for classic mode. In the same way current releases of Sonic 1 let you toggle on spindashes, filters etc.
     
  8. Stink Terios

    Stink Terios

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    Heads up to Brazil and other countries SEGA hates:

    Game's already 20% off on Fanatical plus what you save from not having to pay the regional markup.
    https://www.fanatical.com/en/game/sonic-origins-digital-deluxe

    Will it get discounted further soon? Is it worth waiting for the USD to devalue further? IDK but I already activated my key.
     
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  9. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

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    I'm pretty sure I've clarified before why I don't like the mobile remakes, or at least why I would never consider them "definitive" in any way. They're noticeably inaccurate in numerous ways. There are layout changes that I dislike. Some collision "fixes" change the way a longtime player is allowed to play the game, such as referenced here. The fade to/from black/white effects are not recreated accurately, which feels especially off at the end of Sonic 2 (see a comparison of that in the same video here). And Sonic 2's end credit sequence is just ruined with tacky changes that feel straight out of a fan-made ROM hack. Among other things.

    These may seem like tiny nitpicks to most, but they matter to me.

    The Mystic Cave/Hidden Palace secret bugs me because the boss fight they made for it is absolutely awful and doesn't fit in with the rest of Sonic 2's bosses at all. The spike pit should really just be dealt with in one of two ways: 1) make it a bottomless pit to avoid waiting while invulnerable, or 2) put a spring on one side of the pit like in the beta version so the player can easily escape. Making it a forced detour into a completely different zone (which isn't even based on the original partial level design) is just something I disagree with, regardless of how neat and cool it was for the first players who discovered it.

    This is a big one. Sonic 1 has my favorite special stages in the series because I find them tolerable if not actually fun to complete in an average playthrough. But the horrible smooth rotation makes them a dizzying nightmare at times. And as I believe I've brought up before, someone found the line of code in the original game which toggles the rotation of the special stages to be either smooth or choppy, meaning it is most likely that how the special stages rotated in the original release was how it was intended. I feel basically the same way about the Metropolis gears rotating smoothly, but at least those don't completely mess up the gameplay.

    I sincerely hope that Origins fixes all or most of these issues, because my dislike of these recreations being considered "definitive" isn't just about my own experience replaying the games. It's about people like my friends who've barely played the classic Sonic games. I don't want the most polished, widely available collection of these games to be imitations filled with inaccuracies. I would compare it to modern video releases of older movies touching up or internally altering visuals to the point of revisionism rather than true restoration. Sure, I can watch a fan-made preservation of Raiders of the Lost Ark whenever I want, but Joe Shmoe who hasn't ever had the chance to see it before will go to the supermarket and buy the currently available official version (or more likely, watch it on Disney+). Similarly, I can play the games on original hardware whenever I want, and I do. But that's not what Joe Shmoe will do once Origins has been out for a while, and he shouldn't have to. I just want the newly polished and updated versions of these games to be accurate in the aspects that didn't need updating.

    For Sonic CD, I suppose. I haven't played the Sonic CD special stages in a while on either the original or the remake, so I can't really speak to how they compare at the moment. But Sonic 2 didn't make its special stages nearly unplayable and borderline headache-inducing at times like in Sonic 1. It isn't always simply about being different, it's about the stages being made legitimately worse. Most people already complain enough about Sonic 1's special stages being difficult to navigate and control. I can't imagine what it feels like for a first time player in the mobile remake.

    It just feels like they didn't give a great deal of thought to anything other than what they could "improve" on a technical level.
     
  10. Unreality

    Unreality

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    Well this exceeds all of my expectations, this has truly made my day!

    Thank you to Stealth, Taxman, Headcanon, the teams, SEGA and all involved for stepping up and making this what we want it to be.

    Regarding some of the complaints I've seen: some people need to realise that SEGA are a corporation. They exist to generate revenue. When they gave the green light to this project it would've been after figuring out how they can make profit from it.

    They could've cheaped out and shoved the 4 games into an emulation package to capitialise on the success of the Sonic 2 movie. We are lucky they did not. Some people, quite frankly, are being childish with their public nitpicking.

    We, as fans, know how much this overall project with Taxman/Stealth etc, has been handled with care. Care and consideration costs money. The casual fan buying this won't know any of this, they probably won't even realise these aren't the versions they played 30 years+ ago.

    I don't blame SEGA for wanting to generate additional revenue by including DLC for hardcore fans such as us. I am more than happy to pay for it, and I will happily pay for any future DLC. The alternative is that they didn't bother making any additional content such as the missions due to no return on investment.

    Sonic Mania doing well may have indeed led to them comissioning Retro Engine Sonic 3&K. Support Sonic Origins, folks. Buy it day 1. Like the trailer on YouTube, like their tweets. It all adds up to showing them THIS is the stuff we want. After all, after establishing the origins in a definitive package..it opens up a logical scenario for new classic games..
     
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  11. Antheraea

    Antheraea

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  12. SuperSnoopy

    SuperSnoopy

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    While I can't say I agree with most of your points, I at least understand your point of view a little bit more. Thanks for taking the time to type that!

    imo the improvements brought upon by the remasters massively outweigh the cons, especially when it comes to Sonic CD. But I do agree these inaccuracies being fixed would be preferable.
    In fact, I can even chip in with one more detail! I always liked how you could go to town on Eggman before he even gets a chance to start attacking in the 3rd act of Green Hill. The remaster made him invincible until he starts swinging the wrecking ball, which is all kinds of lame :V
     
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  13. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

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    And you don't have to, of course. As I said before, I assume many of my grievances with the remakes would be considered utterly inconsequential nitpicks by a good majority of players. But like you say, it's not like these weird changes and inaccuracies are actually preferred. They're just tolerated, ignored, or not even recognized when someone like yourself finds that the improvements outweigh any potential negatives. I'm glad you were able to understand my perspective.

    Thanks for reminding me of the invulnerable wrecking ball boss! It's one of the things that bothers me the most and it completely slipped my mind. I assume there are other things I'm forgetting as well, but that one definitely shouldn't go unmentioned. I didn't bring up the widescreen frame ruining boss arenas because at least one of those was updated at some point, so those might see more refinement in Origins if nothing else.
     
  14. Naean

    Naean

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    On the topic of Sonic 1's mobile remake having smoothly rotating Special Stages, this makes me wonder if Sonic 3 & Knuckles' Slot Machine Bonus Stage received the same or similar treatment in Sonic Origins.
     
  15. Laura

    Laura

    Brightened Eyes Member
    I'll admit to bring guilty of this. I was convinced that after Mania didn't get a sequel that SEGA just didn't really care about the team and used their talent opportunistically. I was clearly wrong. In fact, that SEGA trusted Stealth to get together a team of his own (most of whom are relatively unknown) shows that they have considerable respect for him.

    Sonic Origins has changed a lot of my preconceptions regarding SEGA.
     
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  16. LucasMadword

    LucasMadword

    LucasSaturn Member
    But I think that is the crux of the issue; you have grievances with the remake, but you also understand why other people may like them. A port like Sonic GBA completely ruins the game; a remake like the Retro Engine ones have their flaws, and it's understandable why someone would prefer or be adverse to them, but to use hyperbole as if it's the end of the world and a complete travesty to the originals just furthers no discussion whatsoever.

    I would also note though that the video from Webster, just be careful as to specifically which issues are quoted. The one you mentioned is still present, as I just downloaded the latest version of the app to try (in fact, I'm surprised I never noticed that difference before, but now it's pointed out, it's extremely obvious! Although I do tend to play the original in an emulator, just by virtue of it's a little bit easier to play than mobile controls). Some of the issues mentioned *are* patched, as they were running a version without any updates and such.
     
  17. Crappy Blue

    Crappy Blue

    Knuckles' Chaotix is a perfect game with no flaws Member
    I'm still on the side of being excited for this release, but I'll add onto the grievances pile by mentioning it's always bothered me that the Sonic 1 & 2 remasters fixed the bug that let you keep control during the end of act tally by being offscreen when it starts. I like running and jumping around when I can't do anything else.

    Also, posting on nice page number.
     
  18. Antheraea

    Antheraea

    Bug Hunter Member
    and like with the MCZ change, this was probably because of the infamous Super Sonic softlock bug ;)
     
  19. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    I liked doing that too, especially in Sonic 1 because you can miss the ring, plus there were points to collect.

    I feel like the end of act point grabs were an early concept that made more sense when Sonic could jump around in the beta while the act tally goes on, but then when they scrapped that they figured why bother removing the points now, but we'll prob stop doing that (although Sonic 3 brought back the concept with signpost juggling).

    And yes. Nice page number lol
     
  20. RetroJordan91

    RetroJordan91

    The REAL Blue Sphere Guy Member
    If the original 2014 proof of concept video is anything to go by, then I have a feeling the slot machine bonus stage will have the same smooth rotation as the Sonic 1 special stage