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Sonic Origins Collection - General Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by HEDGESMFG, May 27, 2021.

  1. Blue Blood

    Blue Blood

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    Omg yes

    I've seen plenty of people say that they're really happy with how she plays, but I don't know why. She plays like Sonic with marginally tweaked attributes. Basically she's got his insta-shield with a greater radius but no invincibility frames, and a drop dash that makes her run instead of roll. Amy is barely anything more than a skin for Sonic. Unlike the other characters in any of the Classic games including Mania and Superstars, Origins Amy doesn't bring anything new to the table. Even Superstars Amy has an effective double jump. Origins Amy is such a waste.
     
  2. TomGyroid

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    Maybe Superstars Amy got a double jump because her game doesn't have the Electric Shield power-up, which Sonic uses to double jump in 3/4 of Origins' main games? That's the best guess I could come up with.

    FWIW, IDK if it'd help to have another kinda-platformer, kinda-Classic pull in Sonic Pocket Adventure, but of course legally that's never gonna happen.

    Sega procrastinating on a proper 32X emulator seems to have really bit them in the ass when it came to Knuckles Chaotix if not its associate spin-off games in this collection (like Sonic Eraser, which DID have data in Gems Collection to suggest intended inclusion, so I'd say it's like 8 games in all). I'm not sure how it exactly works, like if they specifically do a whole difficult console emulator JUST to include one weird spin-off game as a side addition of a game collection. And without it, people would ask why they'd add Spinball/3D Blast of the Origins Music DLC but not that game, or why it's all Genesis mainline or Game Gear games but not all Genesis spin-off games. May've got themselves into a corner with that one.

    Which makes me wonder, does the Knuckles Chaotix music still play when time's running out in Mission Mode if you've not purchased the Music DLC?

    It's disappointing that we have collections literally generations apart that didn't solve Chaotix's 32X emulating or SegaSonic's trackball control situation (but still charged for music from the former), but then Origins Plus as is still had some remaining issues with polish in its main games and even the Game Gear emulation, which you'd think would be simple after doing it for literal decades but seemingly had some degree of input lag and an audio bug on Sonic 2 they've still never fixed. So I'm not sure if dividing up the project's attention even further on arcade or Genesis spin-off games that'd both require some notorious emulation problem to overcome would've landed.
     
  3. Linkabel

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    I don't really understand this so I would appreciate someone here explaining the situation to me.

    One of the reason why SegaSonic has not been included is because they said it was due to the trackball control situation.

    But how come I could go to an arcade right now that has those cabinets with various roms in it and I can play the game fine with just regular controls?

    Is it just harder to do for a home release or is it a Chaotix situation where they don't want to waste resources on creating a 32x emulator they can use?
     
  4. Kilo

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    The arcade cabinet loaded with ROMs is running MAME which definitely has tricks to get around the need for trackballs.
    And as for emulation, the Sega System 32 only has about 20 games or so that I could quickly find, a good chunk of them licensed or so obscure no one gives a damn about them. The only games from it that would probably be deemed worthwhile to rerelease in Sega's eyes would be SegaSonic, Rad Mobile, Out Runners (Which has a Genesis version so by default they'd use that), and maybe Golden Axe Revenge of Death Adder. So 2-4 games is not worth the time and money to research developing a System 32 emulator.
     
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  5. President Zippy

    President Zippy

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    Unpopular opinion: it would cost less to contract Taxman to build a remake in the Retro Engine than to get a good 32X emulator, but the juice is just not worth the squeeze. The visuals and the music are amazing, but the gameplay is a chore. I played it in Kega Fusion way back when, and I enjoyed myself but there are maybe 10,000 people in the entire world who would want to play that game all the way to the end.

    I said the visuals and music are amazing, but I will admit there's also not a lot of variety in the music. All the levels just put a different spin on the same melody. There are also not very many levels for a 1995 game. This game compares very unfavorably even to Sonic Spinball in terms of the number of hours you can squeeze out of it.

    I still like Knuckles Chaotix, just not for more than $3.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2025
  6. qwertysonic

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    I don't think that is an unpopular opinion, That game is an absolute chore. I bought a 32x just to play Chaotix and I've never played it all the way to the end. It's so repetitive, the level layout is boring, and the music gets old fast. People might get excited to see that there's a "new" classic sonic game they've never played, but would quickly get angry at Sega for tricking them out of $20 for buying this trash.

    I would buy it, but I'm also on a message board for crazy classic sonic fans. I doubt even most people on here want to actually play chaotix beyond the novelty much less the average consumer. It would be stupid for Sega to try to re-release it.
     
  7. President Zippy

    President Zippy

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    Glad I'm not on the firing squad for saying it. It's an interesting novelty item, but pretty forgettable. The special stages were kinda fun. Not peak Sonic 2 SS fun, but still fun.
     
  8. Game Apologist made a review of Chaotix in which he said that the game would not fare well as a stand-alone re-release. I agree with that. I like Chaotix, but I don't think it's exactly a polished game. I think it would work a lot better as a mere part of Gems-style collection.
     
  9. E-122-Psi

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    Yeah, my issue is that Amy just doesn't really alter the pace of the games in much substantial way. They didn't even let her have double jump.

    Even just porting over Mighty or Ray from Mania would have had more impact on a play of at least SOME levels between the four games.

    I think the issue is that Chaotix's design issues are more fundamental than the quadrilogy's, even Sonic 1 where you can at least add the odd new route or use new characters to make the occasionally sluggish level design feel more compelling. Chaotix's level design to compare is just.....bare, no matter what way you play it, and you have about six different character playstyles to test that on.

    I think the only way they could reasonably get away with fixing Chaotix is by adding a separate 'arranged mode' with better layouts and more gimmicks added while retaining a 'classic layout' option so the untouched original is still technically there.

    If a 32X emulator is genuinely that difficult a step, a remake would likely be the better approach for Chaotix since you can at least make it relatively more compelling a game.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2025
  10. In speaking of Amy, I'm astonished that nobody has backported her into Mania. Remember that #Roomforonemore thing?
     
  11. Chimpo

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    TFW no Digital Lock-On Technology sales gimmick
     
  12. TomGyroid

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    Mania was already years past release come Origins Plus, I'm not sure that kind of mutual save data bonus would have been in the cards. Is there precedent for it?
    Would an Amy double jump alter the pace much either when Sonic can technically already do that with the Electric Shield in 3/4 games? IDK. Mighty and/or Ray would've been appreciated, but they're kinda a package deal and Amy made way more sense for these games in particular. Amy and SCD Knuckles already kinda made up the expected extra characters of RSDK projects like these and Mighty/Ray would probably be a lot more work than "just porting them over", with Mighty having extra nuances to his drop ability to justify it (like, would they need a bit of new level design to take advantage of it?) and the games all being different RSDK engine iterations. They'd perhaps change things up more than Amy, but to a point of being way more difficult to reasonably implement in 4 different legacy titles, hence presumably why Amy plays it fairly safe in comparison.

    Maybe Taxman and Stealth could work wonders with some kind of involved remaster of Chaotix with a new mode or something, but at that point why not just make another Sonic Mania-ish project. SegaSonic's trackball could have control workarounds, though even so, I wonder how much of the intended experience is "lost" when you remove that for something more conventional and accessible. I'd guess that's maybe a factor at play in its rerelease limbo if they mentioned the issue with including it in Gems Collection being "a trackball control scheme that is very, very difficult to replicate with a standard controller.", but then at other times they didn't shut down the possibility specifically because of that. Was there also something about suggesting to Sega that it'd be rereleased on a touch screen device to emulate that or something?
     
  13. JcFerggy

    JcFerggy

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    Rephrasing what I've said elsewhere, I am one of those type of people who latches onto "Official" move-sets whenever possible. Despite their lackluster abilities and fan reception, we now have two "official" move-sets for Classic Amy with Origins and Superstars.

    I like Superstar's double-jump, but wish her hammer didn't come out till a second jump input to match the aesthetic of the other characters jumps balls, while also acting as her double jump equivalent input. Meanwhile Origins lacks any such double-jump feature, instead acting like a super insta-shield, while loosing out on the added mobility of such a double jump. Then there's her hammer-drop, which I have no real thoughts on other than I don't care for the static speed when activated. Feels weird.

    My ideal solution would be to merge the move-sets in a way to allow both abilities. Simply have one button to jump, and another for her hammer, but that would clash with the one-button design simplicity of the classic Sonic games. Alternatively, you could have Superstars actions while holding Up, and Origins actions if it is not held. This way you can still single-jump while swinging your hammer like Superstars, or use the double-jump input while charging a hammer-drop, or re-ready a badnik-bounce without double-jumping.

    I suppose my main gripe with the entire situation is the complete dismissal of either move-sets in favor for her Extra Slot S3AIR move-set or similarly modded content. No shade against the developers or the effort that went in to making their mods, but I was one of those who wanted a simpleplistic, lock-on 'esque backport to Mania.

    I also like vanilla ice-cream.
     
  14. Chimpo

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    I ain't with the others here. I don't think Double Jump was that great either. I think Superstars and Origins Amy are both bland as hell. I loved her Advance moveset and it was good enough because you basically got an entirely different platformer game out if it. We've already had this discussion thought and it basically amounted to "I like it" and "I don't like it" so I'm just gonna table that.

    The larger point with Advance Amy is that she was different. I'm not advocating for the return of her Advance moveset, but I would have preferred to seen them have tried something other than just Coke Zero Sonic. Knuckles and Tails aren't radically different with their base moves but their unique actions were fun and different enough to warrant replaying the games as them.

    What they could have done instead? I don't really want to engage in that discussion too much because it's just idea guy territory, but at the very least I just want her to have a unique action and not a reskinned one.
     
  15. Yash

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    Amy should have been a Scrooge McDuck clone and pogo bounce using her hammer
     
  16. E-122-Psi

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    I think even just maintaining SOME nuances of the Advance moveset might have helped.

    Like there's a legit glitch where if you hold the hammer rev jump on a Chemical Plant pipe spring it gives you a boosted elevation, just like how hammering the springs in Advance gave you a boost. Having that on all the springs could have been a cool nod and at least SOME cool interaction with a large scope of level design that only Amy can do.

    I still feel like having the double jump and maybe her hold down and A hammer slam from Advance 1 and 2 could have been a cool compromise as well, like she has lower scale versions of the lightning and bubble shield for Sonic similar to her lower scale version of the Drop Dash. Basically all of Sonic's abilities at once permanently but with some power downage as a balance.
     
  17. raphael_fc

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    I think Superstars' Amy is very good. Mainly because we don't have the electric shield (that magnetic thing doesn't do the same). And the second jump even increases her range like an insta-shield (which, again, we don't have in Superstars).
    What I didn't like that much was her "drop dash" with the hammer. It's too similar to Sonic's drop dash. But that aside, I do believe Superstars' Amy is the best 2D Amy.

    But in Origins she's just... there. There's nothing in Origins' Amy that makes her stand out. She's almost a Sonic skin.

    At the same time, Advance's Amy is so different that gets to be annoying. The ideal is to be different from Sonic but akin to him. Advance's Amy is not that.
     
  18. Iggy for Short

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    I'm not sure exactly what other midair maneuvers would fit Amy, but I think ideas from the iterations we've seen so far could be pulled together into something interesting. I've probably proposed this at some point already, but I'd do something along the lines of:
    • Give her the normal spin-jump (or the Advance jump, if you really must)
    • Press the button again mid-jump to start spinning the hammer
    • Let the hammer spin increase the launch power of springs, or do something else interesting like bounce off of terrain (or both?)
    And then if I wanted to throw in hack-level gimmicks, I'd let her Hammer Jump by pressing jump while skidding to a stop or something. :V

    EDIT: Jeez, I take too long on my posts. I got ninja'd by like 3 people.
     
  19. E-122-Psi

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    Yeah I like Advance Amy but understand it's rather niche and would likely be very complex to implement.

    That's why I think Superstars Amy but with SOME small nuances of Advance Amy could have been a better compromise.
     
  20. I would rather have Taxman do SegaSonic than Knuckles Chaotix, but I also think it would be better to have both games in a collection than a separate release. If Sega would do that, then please also do Sonic 3D Blast Mega Drive and Saturn version with the possibility to switch between the Mega Drive and Saturn version on the fly by pressing a button. A bit like how Wonder Boy the Dragon's Trap did it on modern platforms.