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Sonic Origins Collection - General Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by HEDGESMFG, May 27, 2021.

  1. Sai Start Marker

    Sai Start Marker

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    It's no one's responsibility to keep the producers and executives of SEGA in $10 DLC upgrade money. I feel like this anger is a little misplaced, and you should be more enraged at the people who are causing these creatives to be stifled, underpaid and ultimately dismissed. It's not any of us here. It's the same higher level people who are getting fat off these $10 stacks.
     
  2. RDNexus

    RDNexus

    Member
    Problem is, those top execs (and maybe producers too) who grow fat from us customers may rarely give a crap about our opinions and feedbacks.
    Devs usually end up getting the short end of the stick, having to deal with execs (and maybe producers too) who care more about money than proper game dev conditions or giving customers decent-to-stellar products.
    I'm quite sure most of them take customers as idiots who feed them big over the smallest of treats from them... :'(
     
  3. rata

    rata

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    Trying to be useful somehow.
    Yeah you should use some corporate language like 'I'm afraid I think the sprite work does not hold up to the standards of a fine, polished product.'
     
  4. HEDGESMFG

    HEDGESMFG

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    Oh, they listen alright. But what do they listen to?

    "I'd pay 5$ for that, but not 10$."

    That's what they listen to. And the devs pay the price every time and are prevented from organizing to do anything about it in many such cases.

    Again, I don't think games should be 100$, but the reality is that complaining about a 5$ increase when Mania was probably underpriced and still insulting the devs on top of it reeks of exactly why we're constantly given subpar stuff. You guys may not see it, but feedback like that feeds directly into this problem.

    You want better quality? Demand it but also be prepared to pay more. You can't have it both ways. And if you don't like the price? It was probably the minimum needed for the devs to have even a half-assed quality of life in the current market, and may well have come from 'them' negotiating for better pay and contracts. Something which they will almost never discuss publicly (because of contracts that legally gag them), but something which is not uncommon for developers right now.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2023
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  5. Snowbound

    Snowbound

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    You’re absolutely correct… but I think the point HEDGESMFG is making is that despite the $10 dlc price, this was a budget collection made in crappy conditions and for some reason people are now directing their anger at Headcanon and not the company (Sega) responsible for causing bugs with the menus, the previous retro engine ports and the crunch conditions they worked under while making the 3K port. Tbc, things are expensive for everyone rn. It’s completely valid to not spend money on a new sonic product. And it’s valid to criticize Headcanon’s work… but I’m sorry some of u are displaying a shockingly short term memory here by placing the blame for the collection’s larger issues on stealth.
     
  6. Sai Start Marker

    Sai Start Marker

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    My point is that Origins Plus is worse than the Mania Plus upgrade. If it was the same level of care and polish, I'd happily pay the $10. Hell, I'd even pay $15, if it was truly very well polished. I know you have "issues" about the degree of polish "the community" would need from this project but my baseline would be: The Mobile Retro versions would have all the functionality of the Mobile Retro versions (stuff that was stripped out), and then a more functional Sonic 3 that more closely resembled that kind of work put into the original Mobile Retro versions of the first three games.

    This has not happened, to my eye. I don't blame Headcannon for this. It's clear that SEGA has imposed HUGE restrictions on what they can do and reduced the time frame in which they could feasibly achieve it. Regardless of this, I am reluctant to pay for the upgrade. Maybe you think even this level of expectation is "unreasonable", but my through line should be that they should match what they did in 2011/2013 with the first three games. They have failed to do that, in my opinion.

    Paying more money in the hope they'll "do it right next time" is not something that interests me.
     
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  7. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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    Sonic Origins is the kind of title that'd be part of a new version of SEGA AGES 2500...if it ever were to exist...

    Phantasy Star generation:1&2 might get under such criticisms if they were produced and released nowadays.
     
  8. Snowbound

    Snowbound

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    100% agree. Folks have a right to critique. Folks have a right to not buy things they can’t afford or don’t want. But I’m seeing a lot of people here who do not work in creative industries act like they understand the nuances of game development/creative work. Spoiler alert: if u aren’t in these industries then you have no idea what you’re talking about. It’s why my mottos is to critique games NOT people. I’m not sure if I’ve always lived up to this motto, but I’m trying to
     
  9. kazz

    kazz

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    Be prepared to pay more so the producers can continue to pay the developers like shit and give themselves bigger bonuses.

    And like... I just don't think adding shitty GG emulation and a new character to a pre-existing 2D platformer engine is that big of a deal for $10 especially from a producer that currently seems to be doing just fine financially. Hackers and fan devs have already been doing the same shit for free and for decades and the devs aren't seeing any of this money anyway. Where's the motivation for me as a customer outside of some pitiful obligation to just give Sega money?
     
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  10. astroblema

    astroblema

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    I just see it as paying $10 for Knuckles in Sonic CD.
     
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  11. Laura

    Laura

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    I don't mind that the DLC costs £10. If it was well made I actually think that is a reasonable price. Mania Plus was just too cheap for what it offered.

    The problem is it frankly doesn't look very good. It doesn't look terrible to be clear. Maybe I will get it because I'm such a big Sonic fan, but it doesn't look good.

    And yeah, I haven't played it, but I don't really need to play it to make an informed decision about how a new character in a game I have played many times will function. She's using a colour scheme which does not match the environment, she has sound effects which often sound strange, she has a moveset which is clearly almost identical to Sonic, and she has a hammer drop dash which very clearly has a janky implementation.

    If anything, I think we need to fight against the idea that we should shield Headcanon from all criticism just because they are talented community members. They are professional developers and can be critiqued as much as anyone else. This work here is not a good display of their talent (which they clearly have).

    I just find it tedious because discussion is so black and white here. SEGA are the evil corporate overlords and Headcanon are an infallible team. Any mistake is SEGA's responsibility and anything good is the result of Headcanon.
     
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  12. BenoitRen

    BenoitRen

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    I disagree. Sonic Mania not existing would not have made this product look much better.
    No one is shaming anyone who wants to buy this for their own enjoyment. All that's being said is that if the goal is to support Headcannon, this is not the way to do it.
    Only one person has been trying to imply this. Don't lump all of us together. But several people in this thread sure seem to try to push this narrative that we're all angry at Headcannon.
     
  13. jubbalub

    jubbalub

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    Literally only one person is trying to do this. And said person isn't even implying they're "incompetent". Just that they are not automatically protected from criticism.

    Other people are simply lamenting the fact that this DLC is not as good as it should've been.

    It should be noted that Headcannon only publically announced they're working on art for Amy and Knuckles, and implied some other involvement. They didn't really say they were handling the implementation of Amy (and judging by how... not good it looks, I don't think they did).
     
  14. HEDGESMFG

    HEDGESMFG

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    If you can't understand why supporting Headcannon doing professional work with a major developer is important for his career, do please stuff it. I'm sick of people's utter ignorance on this issue. Should the system be better? Hell yes. But guess what? A lot pros are stuck with it until we can organize and still need to try and make careers out of it with the skillsets we worked our asses off to build.

    Headcannon will not have the career he wants if he's stuck as an indie dev taking paypal and patreon money. An extremely small group of people make a healthy living that way, especially as the indie market also gets saturated. That's not how this shit works.

    And to answer Laura's points, I agree that he is not above criticism (fan devs make tons of mistakes all the time, or make controversial decisions. Believe you me, the mod scene is its own clusterfuck of toxicity and infighting constantly), but we haven't even played the game yet. Can you at least let some of us get our hands on it before we all overreact and start speculating about who is responsible for a mess we haven't even truly played? I get that you're wise enough (no sarcasm, you do clearly have strong knowledge on the subject in many ways) to have informed speculation on the classics at this point, and I fully support your willingness to not buy the product, but it'd be nice if we at least waited a week before certain sectors of the internet open their big mouths on this matter.
     
  15. MastaSys

    MastaSys

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    Frankly if Headcanon develops Mania 2 on these conditions and sold with these nickel and dime aproaches with a strategy guide required to pick a version of the game, I rather never see Classic Sonic ever again in a videogame.

    If you want to buy the DLC be my guest, it's hard earned money that isn't mine. Just don't expect others to send that "Sega please continue this behaviour" message too.
     
  16. Laura

    Laura

    Brightened Eyes Member
    I understand the thrust of your argument and largely agree with it. The only reason I would buy it, and let's be honest I provably will do so, is to send a signal that Headcanon are a good team to work on Sonic. So yes I agree with you on that completely. It probably won't even work but I still think it is the right thing to do.

    I understand your concern about criticising devs. I am very tired of the dogpiling on Iizuka and Kishomoto. And I don't like Kishomoto's design philosophy! Although I guess Kishomoto is now a saint in the fandom because he is active on Twitter? So yeah, it just shows how temperamental people are when it comes to developers.

    Here's the but though. Lol!

    But...I think I have a good enough idea now on how Amy plays from looking at the footage. And it is disappointing. Maybe she will be more fun when you hold the controller but I somehow doubt it. If she is no fun at all, I don't think we should just think SEGA is completely in the wrong. Headcanon must have made mistakes.

    But yes, I think you are right to wait for Plus to release. I've always been speaking in the first place from a first impressions angle.
     
  17. HEDGESMFG

    HEDGESMFG

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    Thank you for hearing me out. I think I've made most of my points sufficiently enough now.

    Now I really do need to walk away from this for a bit. I'm sorry I got heated, but I hear a lot from people all across both the game and film sector right now. I'm giving myself a day's break or so. Have at it, folks.
     
  18. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    I get the negativity can be annoying and harsh at times, but at the same time, I don't think us not working in a games industry ourselves is an excuse to silence critique. Constructive critism is neccessary sometimes.

    And again I think it doesn't help that Mania Plus gave us a much more effortful package for half the price and arguably less active support from SEGA themselves. I'd get it if Mania Plus was maybe underpriced, it was a solid deal, but it was still a clear case of quality no matter what price it was. Mania Plus could have been double Origins Plus' price and I would still think it was a better deal.

    I also 100% think playable Amy being the first 'taster' of what Superstars has to offer was a pretty damn bad choice, and has already left people thinking the game will have some halfassed elements despite being WAY more of a passion project than Origins. :P
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2023
  19. Sai Start Marker

    Sai Start Marker

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    I think I'm not alone in saying that I would have paid $60 for Mania at launch, and probably would have gone as high as $15 for the Plus DLC (and I spent this much, and more, on physical regional variants). Again, as Psi says, it's about the quality of the product.
     
  20. Chimpo

    Chimpo

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    I have. Nothing big outside of Sonic CD. A bunch of one off projects, and I dabbled in a few with Stealth. It's a very tough business and the main reason I stopped doing art. I mean no ill will towards Stealth and his crew. I known they got a lot of pressure and high expectations. I'm still going to buy this collection at the end of the day because I'm a completion slob.
    But I, or anyone else here, do not need to check any of those boxes to say something. The only one in the wrong here would be me for my harsh language. The only thing I will apologize for is sparking the thread derailment since it rubbed people the wrong way.
    That said, my point stands. The sprite art is rough.