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Sonic Origins Collection - General Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by HEDGESMFG, May 27, 2021.

  1. Iko MattOrr

    Iko MattOrr

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    I've seen the leaked footage of Amy and all the other content.

    I like the "surprise" thing a lot, but it's also a small thing, nice but very small.

    I don't really like Amy's gameplay... in Superstars I'm a bit mixed on her gameplay, but here in Origins it's even worse. I've seen some Amy and Tails gameplay of Sonic 2, and Tails and Amy's sprites together look like they are from 2 completely different games, too.

    Gameplay-wise, I find it annoying that the moveset does its best to make it seem like Advance Amy never existed. In turn, she plays like a slightly different Sonic instead.

    Yeah, in Sonic Advance 2 she had that Arale peel-out instead of the spindash... they could have kept it and automatically switch to hammer rush after activation instead of rolling (who cares if it did overlap with the actual peelout in CD). Spring enhancement should have remained, as much as the hammer jump from Advance/Adventure (as I suggested in another thread, a second button is not needed, just roll and press down+jump to hammer jump). Amy's current gameplay is disappointing...
     
  2. big smile

    big smile

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    Oh yeah, just to clarify, I hold Sega responsible for the cash grabbing.
    I do not hold Headcanon responsible for the problems in Plus at all.

    Like I said earlier, there's no way Headcanon would put out something this bad. I do feel they've been given a short leash to do stuff and Sega has done the bulk of work.

    I wouldn't be surprised if, just like with the Sonic 3 Remastered, Headcanon put in way more work than they were paid for and did as much as they could with in the constraints they had.

    I do have a lot of sympathy for the challenges they face. And like I said, it could be that the updates that they did make were more involved than we realize.

    But at the same time, $54 is the total price tag for people who bought it when it came out. So it feels like Sega had the budget to overcome these technical challenges. And also, Sega have been quite inconsistent in the character options for the other games. So the absence in Sonic CD seems less like technical problems and more like Sega couldn't be bothered. If the rest of the game was more polished, then I'd forgive them for omitting it in Sonic CD.
     
  3. Laura

    Laura

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    I do think we run the risk of falling into fanboyism here in all honesty. Headcanon was contracted to make Amy a playable character. Amy coming out subpar must be somewhat a result of their misswork. I don't think you can just lay all the charges at SEGA.

    Stealth is a talented developer, there's no doubt about that, but I think his work on Origins has not been his best. Sonic 3 was pretty faulty and now the implementation of Amy has been subpar on even just a fundamental aspect such as sound effects.

    Similarly, Andy is clearly a talented artist, as can be seen in his New Blue Spheres sprite image. But using wrong colours for Amy was a clear mistake.

    I wouldn't be surprised at all if SEGA also have a role to play in this, since their UI work in Origins is dreadful, but I think it is important that we (politely and constructively) critique Headcanon's work if it is not up to standard. If we do not do so then we are not really respecting them as professional developers.
     
  4. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    As I mentioned before however, Origins Amy is also likely as much a leftover of how derivative she is in Superstars. No doubt SEGA wanted all games to be uniform and while Origins is relatively jankier in implementation, the fault of how bland and derivative it is lies at the hands of whoever made her Superstars moveset.
     
  5. Laura

    Laura

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    I agree on a design perspective but I'm talking purely about execution here. She doesn't have a janky drop dash in Superstars, that is a result of her implementation in Origins Plus.
     
  6. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    Yea her moveset being just a weird drop dash is disappointing. And she does stick out weirdly next to Tails.

    Id rather we’d of gotten Superstars double jump than whatever this weird clunky attack is. But I don’t really think Superstars can be blamed for this, that fault lies with Sonic Team and Headcannon. Maybe the constraints were there but not their best work.
     
  7. Starduster

    Starduster

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    The solution here, as far as I see it, is to forego this and support whatever future releases Headcannon puts out under their own steam. SEGA should not be rewarded for continually pulling this shit, but I absolutely empathise with the desire to see Headcannon succeed.

    I don't believe Headcanon was actually responsible for the implementation of Amy into the overall project. I mean, maybe in Sonic 3, but the statement provided around the time of Plus' reveal reads to me like their contributions to this were artwork and some relatively minor coding stuff focused on enhancing the existing content.
     
  8. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    I don't think a double jump really 'saves' her moveset really. In fact I kinda prefer her just having a refined insta shield in that regard since it makes utilising her expanded hit box easier than if you always shot upwards, and is about the one thing that works similar to her original playstyle.

    It's the total lack of anything else innovative that lets it down. Amy should have gotten something far more noteworthy than a retooled Drop Dash as her signature ability, and the lack of is more fidelity to Superstars near equal lack innovation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2023
  9. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    Oh I wasn’t saying a double jump would save her moveset just I’d prefer that to this, but I’d still prefer a more unique move over both of these.
     
  10. Pie Eyed Piper

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    From what I remember seeing of the now years old Vertebreaker discussion in General, lack of critique isn't something to be too worried about. However, the fact that most of the discussion wasn't held by the more active General Sonic Discussion regulars may be worth noting. I do get what you're saying, though. I don't think Sonic 3 is all that hot either but I also don't envy being in the position of having to recreate every nuance from that game, either.

    Also, I still don't get the argument of "I want to support a developer by proxy of the 'thing I like' that the dev doesn't actually own (and the publisher gets the all the sales money for)". You know Headcannon is more than Sonic, right? I'm aware of the site I'm posting on, it's not lost on me, but Headcannon has mentioned pairing up with other indies on new IPs sourcing their engine, so it's more than just Pier Pressure at this point (though that might be the only thing available for purchase at the current time).

    It is good that Stealth was able to get more funding for his company by being to partner up with SEGA again for this, I very much remember that video he posted about him being in dire straits after his Vertebreaker campaign failed to get funding and the Darkwing Duck pitch fell through. However, I wish it didn't always read like it must begin and end with Sonic when it comes to them, either. Like it's gotta be Sonic or nothing (I often see that Evening Star gets this sentiment too and, as I said once before, it makes me wonder what the conversion rate'll be on Sonic fans who actually give their new IP a shot vs asking for another Mania, all while still claiming "I support the devs, though!"). There's other ways to support people you like that's beyond the comfort zone of the thing you grew up with. Don't use brand loyalty as a crutch. And like Laura is saying, it's fine to be objective, too. They're industry professionals, there's no reason to be needlessly rude but you don't have to permanently handle everything they do with kid gloves, either.

    That said, just to be clear, most of what's wrong with Origins is on SEGA, no doubt. I don't want anyone getting that mixed up.
     
  11. E-122-Psi

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    As mentioned before, I feel like doing the hammer spin while holding up or down could have been a neat way to implement these moves, like normally it's just insta shield type, but holding up gives you double jump and holding down gives you her downward slam.

    Not to mention some nuances from before like being able to use the attack to propell on springs nearby or enter Knuckles routes. All of these would have made more fun and depthful exploits than a Drop Dash-alike, which I just feel should stay Sonic's ability and something that makes the strategy of his playthrough distinctively different.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2023
  12. Josh Cristan

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    It IS a cash grab, and you are being ripped off. I'd love a new Headcannon/ES Sonic game, but my self re-fucking-spect is worth a hell of a lot more to me, so I won't be blackmailed by substandard shite. They've been doing the whole "I know this is wank, but support it anyway or you may never see a new Classic ever again" routine since Sonic 4.
     
  13. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    Well fwiw we already know Classic will exist if we support this or not, so :V

    I’m still buying this as planned because I still think overall it’s fine. It does what I need it to, let me play widescreen classic sonic portably. But with Amy like this, I’d rather we’d of gotten Might and Ray back lol
     
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  14. BenoitRen

    BenoitRen

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    To those that want to buy this to send the message that Sega should keep working with Headcannon:

    Consider that we already sent that message loud and clear 6 years ago by buying Sonic Mania, and this is the result.
     
  15. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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    I shouldn't be surprised by SEGA screwing up everytime, but...
    After all the crap people gave them?! Again?! They really don't learn. Maybe they'll never learn...
     
  16. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    Idk it’s a tad mediocre but I think we’re all going a little nuts with the hyperbole. This is hardly Segas worst Sonic product and if we got this instead of Mania we’d of eaten it like pigs and slop.
     
  17. Chimpo

    Chimpo

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    If you actually want to support Stealth, just buy Pier Pressure.
     
  18. Sneekie

    Sneekie

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    Hyperbole always makes it hard to discuss what is actually the problem and make people take you less seriously.
     
  19. Snowbound

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    I feel conflicted in the same manner as big smile: the only reason I want to buy Origins Plus is to increase Headcanon’s chances of getting to make/lead their own sonic game.

    That said, I disagree with Psi that sega has been using Headcanon as a figurehead to market the game. It’s clear Headcanon wasn’t in the driver’s seat of this project and it’s true that they know fans will recognize stealth and taxman’s work… bur honestly I feel that sega has tried to hide the fact that they used outside talent on this product. I don’t think The Headcanon or taxman logos have been included in ANY of the origins trailers. I don’t think there’s any hostility between Sonic Team and the mania devs… but I’m starting to wonder if top Sega executives were irked by the public reaction to mania which basically consisted of “sega should just hand control of sonic over to the fans”
    Firstly, everyone here that can financially spare $5 should buy Pier Pressure and directly support Headcanon. I think the reason I and other fans have been willing to lay the blame at sega for origin’s problems is that there is so much wrong with origins outside of Headcanon’s new contributions for 3K. Due to sega’s poor implementation of hedgehog engine and denuvo, there were pc users who couldn’t open the game at launch. The dev cycle sounds like it was a nightmare… and the common denominator is sega. Does that mean Headcanon is above criticism? Absolutely not. But even from an outside perspective, it appears working on Origins was a fucking nightmare.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2023
  20. Sneekie

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    Also, about Stealth and future Sonic games: Sega is a lot of things but I highly doubt that if Origins Plus somehow fails, they'll turn and go "obviously YOU guys were the problem" and then cut Headcannon off entirely. Dimps made many games that underperformed critically and commercially and were still making games. The Switch being a console and Dimps' infinite development on Dragon Ball Xenoverse 2 is likely why we have no more Dimps games.

    I genuinely do not think Sega cares in this regard. Stealth chewed them out publically and Sega... hired them again to make Plus. So not buying this DLC isn't the life or death of this partnership. If you don't think Origins Plus isn't worth it, don't buy it.

    Superstars' existence is probably a bigger threat, and still not that much.

    If you want to support Headcannon, yeah, buy their actual games.