Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by HEDGESMFG, May 27, 2021.
is that intentional? that looks absolutely like a crush to me, in any sane collision system.
I don’t think it’s quite fair to judge the classic games based on the Origins versions, because their bugs & issues that weren’t in the original game could affect your perception of the original games (for instance, you criticize S3&K for the crushing-related issues even though those happen far more in the Origins version than the original). The Origins versions should be viewed as separate games until they fix all of the bugs.
Oh my god. THAT'S A THING????
Fascinating... Other games using Retro Engine stop you on the 1 pixel of wall that's just low enough to reach (which is good and healthy collision; how it's supposed to be done!)
The barrel in you clip is much closer to the ground compared to my S2-HPZ and Mania-MMZ examples, yet it doesn't seem to care about the ridiculously low wall, just the celing.
Origins 3K is just built different I guess
It was rushed.
That, and Sega didn’t want to allow for bug fix updates when Headcannon asked pre-release.
Oh! So that was your particular issue
I've always had qualms with Knuckles' jump, myself, even in the original game. Freedom Planet spoiled me on the idea of everyone having the same general movement, with unique attacks and abilities on top to help set each character apart.
A personal bias is that I believe it's not worthwhile to disadvantage a character without a compelling advantage, to fill in the gaps that the disadvantage creates. Knuckles technically has this on paper with his wall climbing ability, but it's so slow in practice as to bog down the pace of the game. As an exploration tool or not, the climbing speed is tedious on higher walls. (Like those above death pits!)
(And, as you've said, it creates frustrating edge cases where he can't always reach everything that's above a climbable wall.)
While I appreciate that Mania gave all the boys more unique facets, to avoid everyone feeling the same, (For instance, Sonic runs slightly faster than Tails.) I would have also liked if Knuckles got a little more attention. His lower jump serves no compelling purpose in the grand scheme of things, and makes the slow wall climb feel more like a band-aid solution than an advantage.
Sonic 3 AIR changed some minor things about the game's stage layouts to make them less frustrating in general. I don't see why Origins couldn't have done the same in "Anniversary Mode", especially for Knuckles' edge cases.
Overall I'm fine with Knuckles having a slightly lower jump. I like to think of it as rendering Knuckles the "hard mode" of the game (with Tails' cheesy flight ability rendering him the "easy mode"). I just think that's a really interesting way to handle different difficulty levels. I'm also not necessarily bothered by Knuckles being slower paced as a result of his lower jump + climbing combo, but, then, I also love Marble and Labyrinth.
Interesting! I didn't know that Sonic was slightly faster than Tails in Mania.
With Origins, since we know that it was made under crunch and all that, I have to imagine that given more time they would have made adjustments to the stage layouts, especially given the ledge detection renders some things inaccessible that aren't supposed to be. No way to know for sure, though.
Rushed doesn't fully explain it. If you were pressed for time, you would continue to use the same working collision system as the other Retro Engine games to save on time, not make a new collision system or make heavy modifications to the old one.
Are you sure? Quick tests on flat ground shows every player character in Mania has the exact same acceleration at 3/64 px per frame and hits the exact same running speed of 6 px per frame.
I'm also in the camp of liking Labyrinth zone!
And that's how a lot of fans see Knuckles' jump, I think: Making Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles functionally into difficulty settings, and I can't see that as a wrong interpretation, honestly.
I know what my biases are: Not any authority on the matter, just how I feel about things. If that's how you like it, that's how you like it!
I'm sorry, please test things properly before you "Well actually" people on the Internet, it's not great social etiquette.
It's Thursday, so time for some speeeed straaats.
Looks like they're going to make at least one more that covers game secrets.
I liked how it was said in the video Knuckles' gameplay are after Sonic's story.
And the how in the game it plays the new ending sequence from end of Sonic's story at the end of Knuckles story.
I think this is the first time it's ever been called the "double attack" in English. They still called it the "insta-shield" too, so I guess both are valid!
On a related note, I always thought "fireball spindash" was such a cool name. xD
Headcannon on Twitter: "On the heels of one new logo, we're ready to reveal another. In #SonicOrigins, releasing in just one week, you'll see this - the logo for our "Path Tracer" Movement and Collision System, a component of our own HCGE and Methyl engines that has been adapted into Sonic 3 & Knuckles! https://t.co/2pErKNVBWx" / Twitter
The Generations skill that gives the insta-shield to Classic Sonic is actually called the "Twin Spin Attack", so technically the second time.
Apologies if that sounded like "you're absolutely wrong >:CCC", I meant it to come out in a "huh, that doesn't line up with how I've checked things" kind of tone.
Spoiler: further research in Studiopolis
Comparisons with Sonic: (note that I don't know how to sync the value table with the game so it pauses sometimes) [Knuckles][Mighty][Ray][Tails]
Everyone who's not Tails manages to sync up perfectly the whole ride. Tails himself is synched up more-or-less perfectly, until he just doesn't. Is that something caused by him being the only short character in the game?
At Mania's launch iirc, there was a mashing-jump glitch on downward slopes that only Sonic and Knuckles could do, but not Tails. So he has a streak of being different.
Oh wow, neat stuff. Thanks for digging that up! Curious what specific problems result from putting a 3K level in an older Retro Engine build, so much that they needed to pivot into a new collision system all together... Maybe I should finally learn proper level editing over the next few weekends, and whip up some demonstrations. Sounds fun! And useful!
@KatieChrz (Sonic's social media manager) replied to someone asking about a patch on Twitter:
I mean I can’t really say if that is intentional so I whipped up a little GIF of how it looks like using a Sonic 3 & Knuckles ROM:
See at first I try to push into the block and it won’t let me through. As the top block pushes me back and I start falling into the bottom block it automatically pushes me back down so I don’t get crushed. I do this one more time and then I finally show how I can wedge myself in between the blocks by jumping down.
Using the frame by frame feature from pausing that this version has (after using the level select cheat) it shows that for at least a few frames Sonic seems to actually be inside the bottom block but is quickly pushed out. I suppose this concludes that this was likely unintentional to wedge myself in between the blocks but again I’m no expert at this technical stuff so I can’t be too sure in saying that as well.
For comparison here is the same section in Sonic Origins:
I try pushing into the block at first to show that it is just the same in this version too. Then I tried jumping down twice but it didn't work. When the top block pushes me back I fall down into the bottom block and I get a crush death. I guess this shows that this technically should be how it happens as you said but it is a shame I am no longer able to just pass through this part quickly.
I must have misremembered when I tried jumping down the first time in Origins whether it crushed me or not from my previous post because it looks like it won’t even let me go down from there at all. I must have confused it with the part when it pushes me back into the bottom block which is where the crush actually occurs. That’s what I get for playing games late at night when I already feel half asleep
Given your current profile image is from Metroid (the AM2R fangame specifically) I think a good comparison about all of this is the game Super Metroid and how it has a lot of unintentional techniques in it that help with speedrunning that I’m sure would all be taken out if it were ever given a remake.
I pray that “the team” Katie’s referring to includes Headcanon
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