Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by HEDGESMFG, May 27, 2021.
Also Picopico Hammer
Been ages since I posted but have to give my two cents here because I know people at SEGA know of this place because I hope we get a BDSP day 1 patch situation here cause the instruments sound rough. While I expected the actual songs to be more similar to the Sonic 3 & Knuckles collections than the Sonic 3 prototype I was still expecting good use of instruments for the songs. Big ooph on the CNZ tracks specially. LBZ arent as bad with ICZ being pretty much what I expected. Also that Super Sonic theme is interesting.
The manual does say Piko
Though tbh? I’ve never particularly minded the idea of just switching to the Pico spelling to reference the console.
Its just an onomatopoeia for the sound it makes, right? Still works.
I've seen the comparisons of Ice Cap from the 1103 prototype and Origins and their closeness raises some questions and is probably the only really interesting thing about these songs. There's a few possibilities here: These songs were recorded from an earlier prototype, so the songs themselves are in a less complete state. These songs were recorded from a later prototype, so the songs are actually more polished than the earlier prototype. These songs didn't come from a prototype at all and were recorded from some internal tool that Sega used to build/demonstrate the soundtrack on, something like what is demonstrated in this video for Sonic 2. This would go a long way to explain why some songs are very close if not identical to their 1103 counterparts.
Given that these songs have changes that get them closer to their composition in the Sonic & Knuckles Collection on PC, I'd lean towards them being a later prototype or that internal tool. It could very well be that these songs were in a state of rebuild when news came down the pipe that the songs were being scrapped, so even though they are later compositions, they sound worse because more work was needed to bring them back up to spec. Or, if they came from an internal tool, these could be the base compositions originally made from some demo track recording but another sound engineer went in later and cleaned up the songs and those cleaned-up versions made it into 1103, hence why they sound different. The tool versions could have then been dug up by the S&KC developers and used, hence their closeness (though there's something I need to check out that I've been unable to recently, so I'm not so convinced about this last point right now, hopefully come back to this later). Lots of "ifs" here, no clarity at all.
Reasons as to why they could be from a later prototype: Ice Cap Zone Acts 1 and 2 sound better in Origins than 1103, miraculously. They are ever-so-slightly changed, but sound better for that change. We know that the sound driver in 1103 was in a state of flux in that build, it constantly glitches out and leaves notes lingering. It could be that the changes that brought the Sonic 3 sound driver up to where it is in the final got cut or changed a bunch of things that messed up these 1103 tracks and thus required the re-write, hence why these songs sound the way they do in Origins. Though I could very well be wrong in this, I don't believe I've seen documentation of anyone porting the 1103 tracks to final Sonic 3 1:1, so I don't know what those tracks would sound like if you just picked them up from 1103 and plopped them into Sonic 3 final, I'm sure someone here has attempted this, so I am interested to know.
I don't believe these are remakes of those songs made more recently. As shown with the original composition of the Sonic 3 Super Sonic song, if Sunoue had remade the PC tracks, I would expect them to sound more like that.
I will say this though: I think the last thing we needed right now was more confusion and mystery about/around the Sonic 3 soundtrack and its development...
At the very least, given how different the new Super Theme is from everything else to the point that beyond the drums it doesn't even sound like Genesis FM, and how muffled the quality of the replacement tracks are (specifically these zone ones, the rest seem fine apparently), Jun probably only did the one actual song and then the rest are secondhand recordings.
There's a lot of things that went wrong here, but Jun's seemingly only responsible for composing one strange semblance of madness in this case. At least, in the present presuming none of the original prototype tracks were his to begin with, either.
A lot of speculation here spoken as if fact!
We have no idea how the Sonic 3 replacement tracks in Origins were specifically made. It's entirely possible Jun just made the new tracks from scratch or edited existing ones based upon tapes of the songs and recordings on Youtube of the MIDI and prototypes. Just because the tracks sound like they might fit into some point of the composition chronology doesn't necessarily mean they were made at that point.
We just don't know. I don't think we should say with any confidence that they are sound recordings of different prototype music.
I read that some people wanted a new classic style game and I agree with that.
But I think this collection is meant to bring those who have seen the Sonic movies closer to the franchise, in fact Sonic Origins: Speed Strats introduces basic things.
I remember they will also make a modern 2D Sonic game and I would love it if it had the Sonic Rush style (but I think that is unlikely)!
Having said that I thought I would only take the collection when they remove the DRM and there will be good sale on Steam.
A friendly reminder to everyone: if you do feel the need to raise a concern about this, one of the best ways is to organize clearly and concisely what the issue the community feels is wrong with the music in Origins. Bashing Jun won't really get you far, and without a clear and concise messaging, people will assume it's a bunch of old boomer Sonic fans being mad the original tracks are out. Great way to get it brushed aside and nothing done.
Being direct, honest, and non-combative and directing that to someone who can speak for the community internally (like Katie) may help. It's already worked with Sonic Colors Ultimate to some extent (such as restoring all the original music/removing remixes--thank you for that, honestly.) This also goes for any other lingering issues that could make Sonic Origins go from acceptable or good to great.
Believe me that people do see these things, and I think most folks here know too, so while it's okay to be upset, channeling that energy can help Sega adjust the game and MAYBE do something with the music. As for gameplay changes like wide-screen classic mode, that comes down to the under-the-hood changes done to the games.
I just want to make clear that I am merely speculating as is anyone else here. I have no privileged information that would make my previous post anything more than that and I apologise if the tone of my post lead anyone to believe I was speaking with any level of authority on the topic, it was not my intention. But one has to wonder; If Sunoue could reproduce 1103-like songs, why wasn't the Super Sonic song done in the same style? I mean, for them to get Ice Cap nearly perfectly recreated, it shows a level of attention to detail that makes the Super Sonic song compared with the other songs difficult to square. Even if Sunoue did the Super Sonic song and someone else did the other songs, why would they leave that song sticking out like a sore thumb? Again, more questions, more speculation.
People here asking for Museum may've not seen this:
Not a thorough run through it all, but shows a lot of the image and video sections.
I think it also shows the music lists, despite barely playing any track.
Not sure if anyone else feels this way, but I'm being careful not to look at any of the museum. Kind of spoils the game.
I know some of the stuff in it but I want to see the stuff unlock as I play. That was one of my favourite parts of DDLC+ actually.
Only a day to go!
edit: see https://forums.sonicretro.org/index...ite-letter-to-sega-about-origins-music.41057/
Just quoting because I don’t think this can be emphasized enough. Be calm, direct, and reasonable if you want Sega to listen to you. Don’t scream “fuck Jun Senoue”, call people “absolute sausages” (whatever the hell that means) for suggesting that people are being a little too whiney, or tell them to “fuck off” for suggesting that people support the developers. Don’t attack anyone or make it personal. Make it clear you have good intentions and it arises from love for the franchise rather than hatred for Sega/anyone in particular.
Maybe I should move my post above into a dedicated topic so we can organise a response without it being buried within minutes.
I'd be all for that, until then, my points are as such:
I don't think we should be singling out Jun Senoue like that. Seems a little harsh to me and trying to point fingers distracts from our primary goal of just getting these songs fixed.
It's subpar, not subpart. :p
I think it'd be useful to highlight the tracks we're talking about just in case, these being the tracks used in Carnival Knight, Ice Cap and Launch Base, as well as the new Super Sonic theme
Well, he is the culprit, but let's gather more opinions, that's why I made a new topic.
You're right, I'm typing from my phone and my finger slipped.
Oh, I'm pretty sure they know which songs we're talking about.
I'm in the process of rewriting my post into a dedicated topic, please hold on a minute.
Please direct further feedback there.
After listening to each of the songs for the past few hours, I think the Origins mixes are growing on me. I don't mind Carnival Night as much anymore and I'm liking Launch Base. I already thought the Super Sonic theme was pretty good but I guess I'm in the minority when it comes to that. If SEGA does decide to change these into better versions I'm still all for that, but I don't hate the Origins mixes anymore.
Could you imagine the quality of classic sonic if it wasn't for the fans? sega don't deserve all the help they get from passionate sonic fans.
Is it that hard to take what's already good (beta music) and just recreate it correctly? i've seen half a dozen fan fix examples since yesterday that wipe the floor with official sega efforts. goodness this collection rubs me the wrong way so so badly.
now stopping at step 5 of the 5 stages of grief, acceptance.
I'm very conflicted on Origins 3K Super since I like parts conceptually but not how Jun has it, but this mix from Luke ᑎᐱ (@Lu9_ST) on Twitter sounds a lot more pleasant. Still cannot ever comprehend what people see in Ori-CNZ1, Ori-CNZ2, and Ori-LBZ2 compared to the 1103 Proto versions in order to go "mhm yes, Origins is acceptable".
Does anyone have extended uploads of the Origins tracks up on their own? I can only find the newSoup solo, and all the comparisons.
I think the issue with the Super theme is less that it’s bad and more that it’s out of place. It doesn’t sound right alongside the other 3K tracks, which I think is why some are reacting so strongly to it.
Separate names with a comma.