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Sonic Origins Collection - General Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by HEDGESMFG, May 27, 2021.

  1. LockOnTommy11

    LockOnTommy11

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    We don’t know why individual songs were replaced, but they were clearly good enough for them to stay in the Sonic 3 that we got. They also stuck around for Sonic 3 Limited Edition (cancelled), if I’m not mistaken.

    Additionally, I don’t believe it’s entirely the case that people who don’t think the tracks fit are just used to the ones we actually got. I think Launch Base Zone’s proto music starting off very upbeat, and sounding a bit like circus music is bizarre. It makes me wonder whether there was originally some link between Carnival Night and Launch Base, but evidence says completely otherwise. I think this is one part that’s just not fitting at all and I don’t think was necessarily a completed track.

    Interestingly, the Launch Base proto music is also more fitting when it’s with S3&K, because it then doesn’t need to sound like a more serious end level.
     
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  2. lupinsmask

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    Don't like the prototype versions of carnival night/ice cap/launch base so if that's what origins is offering then that's another reason to be content with not owning another version of sonic 1/2/3/K/CD.
     
  3. TheOcelot

    TheOcelot

    Scooty Puff Jr sucks! Member
    Now that we're are getting a new release of 3K I hope this means we can also get a new release of the soundtrack (obviously I'm assuming would include the proto tracks), and not just on digital platforms but also a physical edition. 3K has some great music throughout and I was always bummed we didn't get a release for Sonic's 20th anniversary.

    Going to be fascinating to see what happens with future releases of this game. I can understand the idea of delisting the steam/X360 versions to encourage good sales of Origins (even though delisting them felt like a shitty move), but I think there's more to it than this. I can't help but feel that as part of the agreement to allow for this new release of 3K SEGA had to remove all previously released versions of the original rom and are not allowed to rerelease the original version again. Even if it would be straightforward to replace the MJ/Buxer tracks in a new release of the original version with the proto music I still think this would not be allowed as part of the agreement.

    So if 3K is included in the Mega Drive Mini 2, then I would expect it to be the new Retro Engine version in 4:3. Also, that the Retro Engine version will be the one used for all future console releases (PS6, Switch 2 etc).
     
  4. Starduster

    Starduster

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    I really don't see how such an agreement would even be reached or why. SEGA being unable to sell a ROM version of S3K with replaced music (i.e. as part of the MD Mini 2) does nothing for the composers of the tracks in question and I don't even think they have any grounds to push for that, or anything beyond any combination of the removal of their tracks from Origins and subsequent releases, recompense for the times their tracks were used (if applicable and not already awarded) and public acknowledgement and credit of the musicians for each specific track. I'm not a legal expert by any means, but if SEGA puts out a ROM version which replaces the offending material, then I don't see how Buxer and co. would have a case against them. I think the previous release delistings are primarily concerning pushing sales for Origins, given it wasn't just S3K being removed.
     
  5. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

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    It's wiki time. There's no need to be afraid.
    You are not Sega, and it's not 1993. I'm not expressing an opinion - we know a decision was made to remove certain tracks, and the most logical reason (which tends to come up whenever a developer discusses prototype content) is that they were scrapped on quality grounds.

    Whether people like things on YouTube in 2022 is no indication of opinions of the time. Case in point, the UK's Christmas number 1 in 1993:



    (just looking at the charts today, Running Up That Hill by Kate Bush has surpassed its position on release in 1985 both in the UK and US, so again, opinions change. Or the music industry just sucks at making music - take your pick).
     
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  6. Mastered Realm

    Mastered Realm

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    I can tell you the same. You're not SEGA either. They've reimplemented that track, logically discarded for quality reasons according to you, on Sonic Knuckles Collection.

    And that, logically, can be inferred as a deliberate decision because they could have used the Drossin's Knuckles theme for the SK Collection version of Sonic 3, just like how they did with the Miniboss theme.

    All this is a mess and it seems to be a combination of a development crunch, the need for securing new marketing deals, child molestation accusations, bad archival on SEGA's side (since the OG midis for the game were lost and had to be resequenced for SK Collection ~~ twice), and also the posthumous interference of the MJ estate.

    The full details will never be known but I'm happy we'll be able to move on after this release.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
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  7. Dek Rollins

    Dek Rollins

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    I'm listening to that proto Knux theme and it straight up just isn't a very good tune. It does kinda suck compared to both the S3 and S&K versions.

    While the final CNZ track sounds very... chunky, I guess, due to bit-crushed samples, it has a more memorable melody than the proto track. I actually hated the music in CNZ when I first played the game, but comparing the actual melodies between the two versions, the final track has a lot going for it because of that, despite said melody being a bit grating. Proto ICZ and LBZ both have good melodies that don't compare as poorly in my opinion, just a difference in musical tone. Though Proto LBZ act 2 sounds pretty lame next to act 1.

    I'm definitely excited to hear what Jun did with these tracks, because as you say it'll be easier to compare when the proto compositions have been properly finished.
     
  8. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    Classic Eggman art Member
    If it was about quality, I would ask to change Marble Garden, Mushroom Hill and Sandopolis too; when I was young I thought those were composed by the same people as Carnival Night. I know they're very different in composition and makes sense when you tell me they weren't but they felt similar in the things I didn't like from them. You go from Hydrocity to Marble Garden and the change is jarring for worst, you go from Mushroom Hill to Flaying Battery and you're relieved this time is for the best until you fall to Sandopolis and history repeats.
     
  9. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    I feel like this topic just became a big flush of bad takes about what songs from Sonic 3 (proto or final) are good or not. lol

    Especially rough to watch when people are trying to act like the proto tracks were left out for 'quality' reasons. That just sounds like a thinly veiled "I think these songs suck and the Brad ones were better and history proves me right". It's weird. As someone who used to hate the S&KC tracks I've come to acknowledge that the songs (except an obviously unfinished Ice Cap) are quite good actually. Whether you think they're better or worse than the ones Brad put in is whatever, but I don't see how LBZ or ESPECIALLY CNZ are any 'lesser' songs than the ones that made it in, by the same sound team nonetheless.

    You know good and well there's another timeline where the songs Brad replaced were Angel Island, Hydrocity and Marble Garden, and we hear their original tracks for the first time and go "IDK I just don't think they were very good guys, they made the right call". Couldn't fathom that in our timeline, right? Preferences aside, we're used to those songs we've always had and not the proto tracks and that's all I really think there is to it.

    I can't lie though that original Knuckles theme is fuckin rubbish. Oh well lmao
     
  10. I see discourse on whether LBZ should sound like a final level and whether or not this or that track fits that, so I'm gonna throw my weird take into the ring: I think the proto track actually works fine for that context. Sure, the arrangement in the proto is a bit... perfunctory, but I actually feel like triumphant music underscoring Sonic attacking the base makes sense; unlike in Sonic 1 and 2, where you start in relatively untouched parts of nature before moving to Eggman's various constructions, Sonic 3 immediately has him set an entire jungle on fire, and then you spend most of the game getting blocked at every turn by Knuckles. But now, you've finally reached Eggman's base and you can kick his ass. Somehow, it works.

    Also, I've always been really interested in Launch Base's placement in the game. Sure, Sonic 3 needed a climax, and "Sonic stops the Death Egg from launching and you kinda end up at square one" is a fair enough way to connect it to S&K, but was it always planned that way from the beginning, even before the split? It just seems very strange to me that you basically have a climax and victory in the middle of the game like that, and that after a lot of buildup, the Death Egg just immediately explodes and rockets back down onto the island. I wonder if Launch Base was somewhere else in the order originally, or even if the Death Egg was just supposed to launch successfully and Sonic's string of bad luck continued with him getting dropped into Mushroom Valley Zone?
     
  11. HEDGESMFG

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    And I've loved the beta Knux theme since 1997 and deliberately used the midi in my earliest fangames, so you need to get better taste before declaring yourself the king of objectivity. :V:V:V

    (My point being that consensus on this subject is and always has been very subjective, with perhaps the closest thing to a widely confirmed consensus being that most players prefer HardTimes Ice Cap.)
     
  12. sonicthesnot

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    My theory is that the MJ (or his crew) did write a full soundtrack, and the intention was to remove all the tracks due to the child molestation allegations. There's absolutely no way that SEGA, a children's video game company, could be so closely associated with an alleged child molester that was going through a trial that was covered around the world. Like zero chance.

    I then think Sega commissioned a bunch of people to submit tracks to replace the original MJ soundtrack. But they were on a tight timeline, and whatever submissions they got for ICZ/CNZ/LBZ were so bad that they reinstated some of the MJ tracks back in at the very last minute. And SEGA figured if they could "hush hush" the involvement with Jackson, that would be enough to hopefully patch things over. This could explain the weak-sauce Act 2 arrangements, there wasn't enough time to rework them so they just muted some channels here and there.

    I'm not saying the MJ tracks for ICZ/CNZ/LBZ were amazing, but the original beta tracks were straight up turds compared to the quality of Angel Island, Hydrocity, Marble Garden, the 2P tracks, etc.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
  13. Mastered Realm

    Mastered Realm

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    ... but the thing people usually praise the most about the proto tracks is how close LBz 2 and CNz 2 sound to Hydrocity, not only for the similar instruments but also due to the similarities in the arrangement style too.
     
  14. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    Idk I guess HCZ just pulls it off better :V
     
  15. BlueSkiesAM2

    BlueSkiesAM2

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    I always enjoy when people use phrases like “objectively better/worse” to describe things like music or games because it’s a pretty good indicator of who to ignore. To people who do this: You’re objectively using the word wrong, buddy.

    That said…
    How can you not accept that someone could make two things of varying quality?

    Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic Adventure 2 were made by Iizuka. I think the majority of people, including yourself, would classify one as ‘lesser.’
     
  16. McAleeCh

    McAleeCh

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    Just to note, the leftover Lava Reef data in the 1103 Sonic 3 proto would logically be from a pre-split version of the game, and still shows the crashed Death Egg in the background in Act 1 (albeit with different graphics to the final version). So it seems this plot beat was already planned in the pre-split version of the game rather than botched in as a consequence of the split.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
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  17. Azookara

    Azookara

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    Because I like them just as much as the final tracks, thus emphasizing my point on how subjective and skewed this convo is. :V
     
  18. Forte

    Forte

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    Everybody's focusing on Sonic 3 music and I just want original Labyrinth Zone replaced with its SMS counterpart :V

    It would be cool if they just implement the option to shuffle zones music, like in Sonic Generations - and include ost from all of the games up to Sonic Blast.
     
  19. Overlord

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    Am I the only one who likes the LBZ1 proto's intro?
     
  20. RDNexus

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    Wait a sec... Sonic Speed Simulator seems to have HardTimes ICZ theme playing on Snow Valley.
    If S3K can't have it playing on ICZ, wouldn't SSS be in hot water as well?