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Sonic Origins Collection - General Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by HEDGESMFG, May 27, 2021.

  1. RetroJordan91

    RetroJordan91

    The REAL Blue Sphere Guy Member
    I don’t remember if it was mentioned here on Retro or elsewhere, but one possible reason for 1103 still containing the pre-MJ tracks was that it may have been a prototype for the multiplayer feature (?) since the competition stuff was close to final as opposed to the main game. Perhaps the devs were separated into groups and worked on different portions of the game, thus there were separate builds?

    If the date is indeed true, think of all the crunch time the devs had to go through between 1103 and the final build. I don’t know how long it would take to substitute the tracks in question, but crunch time was most certainly a factor in going with the MJ/Buxer tracks.

    They could have wiped their slate clean as well by polishing up the replacement tracks and adding them prior to the release of Sonic & Knuckles to get it ready for the lock on stuff but alas it didn’t go down that way.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2022
  2. Loop

    Loop

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    I think it's very pointless to keep speculating on which track is which when the game is reaching us up to 2 weeks from now and when there's, you know, SEGA's music director in charge of this.

    And whether they fit or not for you is just a response of your nostalgia and past experiences. I'm pretty sure the composers and arrangers both in the western and eastern teams knew what they were doing when writing and implementing the tracks into the game. At least they know more than us mere armchair connoisseurs.
     
  3. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

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    It's wiki time. There's no need to be afraid.
    I don't think you could convert half a dozen prototype songs to MIDI format (twice?) by accident. Sega's PC division would have been very much on the sidelines in 1997, but you'd have to be extraordinarily bad at your job as a musician, to not notice the difference between the Mega Drive and PC soundtracks.

    I know we get excited about legal rights but I don't think it was informing any decisions for Sonic & Knuckles Collection. The fact is, S&KC had the prototype tunes, Sonic Jam, released just months later, had the final ones (and there was probably development overlap). As do things like Sonic Mega Collection and the Wii Virtual Console releases and whatever - if it's genuinely an issue with Michael Jackson and his pals, it only became one since his death. Or nobody thought about it. Ironically it might have been this board that brought it to Sega's attention.


    The theory is that the replaced tracks are sample-heavy which wasn't a good fit for MIDI. Alternatively, they might have only had the original demos (and music sheets) for the prototype songs, and reverse engineering the final Mega Drive tunes to see how they ticked wasn't a route they wanted to take. Whatever the reason, it would have been done consciously - if it was hide the efforts of Jackson's team, great job, because their names are still listed in the credits.

    The more interesting question is why only some songs were replaced. Why didn't Jackson's team compose the whole soundtrack? Was someone slacking? Why did Howard Drossin come in and make another Knuckles theme if they already had one in the bank?

    I think, and we seem to forget this, that the reason certain tracks might have been replaced, is that they sucked. I can envision a situation in late 1993 where the developers had two separate Sonic 3 soundtracks, and they picked the best songs from both. It makes no sense for Sega to force the MJ versions when they were planning to spend the next 20 years pretending Jackson wasn't involved (and the allegations came before Sonic 3's release IIRC, so if anything you'd expect corporate to demand the MJ versions to be scrapped, not the other way around) .

    As for which is more "pure", they both are - they both originated during the development of Sonic 3. You might prefer one over the other, but the team picked the versions they wanted.


    And the splitting Sonic 3 into two thing - that would have been marketing led, but look at the prototype - it's miles from completion and the game was already running late.
     
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  4. AzuraRacon

    AzuraRacon

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    Yeah honestly i’ve seen a couple people making the Drossin Knuckles theme to be this weird mystery but

    the prototype theme was just bad yall. Like beyond cleaning up and rearranging. Throwing it out and starting over, especially to match stylistically with the title theme for the new game with his name in the name, was just the best move
     
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  5. Starduster

    Starduster

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    Honestly I think internet sleuths absolutely caused things to pan out this way in the first place. Didn’t Rush’s OST used to be available on streaming services before being pulled sometime after people started to uncover the sample sources, putting the soundtrack in a legal grey area? Not that I blame or resent said sleuths for it, I think such information is important and interesting as hell, but that’s neither here nor there. Bringing attention to this stuff is always going to bring unforeseen consequences into the picture.
     
  6. Loop

    Loop

    Pure of Heart. Dumb of Ass. Member
    Nothing wrong with the samples being used. SEGA most likely didn't clear them. Clearance is part of the legal process for music publishing, and samples are very difficult to clear if they come from mainstream sources. This sort of stuff always happens in the hip-hop scene, where sometimes the original writers won't allow samples to be used or their publishers to not agree on a deal.
     
  7. RikohZX

    RikohZX

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    The central argument I see for Jam, Mega Collection and so forth keeping the MJ Sound Team music seems to entirely boil down to the idea that it's because Michael Jackson was totally fine with the music being there while he was alive. And once he passed away, Mega Drive / Sega Genesis Classics was basically the last thing to pass by on this before the estate stepped in and things got messy.

    That however infers a lot of belief about Michael Jackson himself among other things, enters a pretty vague space of "he said she said", and it doesn't resolve the answer of the S&K Collection using MIDI renditions of the prototype tracks besides the aforementioned-assumption that the MIDI couldn't do the sound team's renditions well and the said theories on it being an earlier build.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
  8. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    I don't think so. I think MJ's music team probably knew all along that they deserved royalties for the game, but didn't think it was worth going through a legal battle with Sega over, until they saw how many times Sega kept re-releasing Sonic 3 and realized just how much money they could (and should) have been making.
     
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  9. BlueSkiesAM2

    BlueSkiesAM2

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    I have to say that I don’t buy any theory that the OST change was an SoA marketing-led decision. The Japanese developers were very protective of their work and I highly doubt that we’d have seen those tracks in the Japanese Mega Drive release and Jam releases if they were not satisfied with the results. The only existing evidence that supports this theory in my mind is that certain tracks like Knuckles and the mini boss get written over when playing 3K. It’s not a Sonic CD situation where they just grabbed another composer to give it a different feel… I imagine the staff were thrilled to have MJ and his team involved.

    IMO, the tracks that got written over are clearly the weakest of the OST and the replacements were just better. I’m sure the devs felt the same way.

    Random thought, but it’s so weird how I grew up playing the PC release but never noticed the tracks were different when I got Mega Collection and Sonic Jam later. I guess I was just too young to care about the music much. Though I do remember loving Lava Reef Act 2 the first time I played, so maybe I just found the replaced tracks forgettable.
     
  10. RikohZX

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    Somehow I'm only just realizing how different the drum styles are for the "afflicted" tracks. Besides the occasional mix-up like Drossin's Knuckles theme, and the occasional song like Lava Reef adding a bit more to the drums, they mostly have a consistent sound to them like the famous high noise to Sonic 1 and 2's drums.

    Instant you roll into Carnival Night through Launch Base and up to vanilla Sonic 3 credits, the entire drum style changes, and each of these songs keep switching it up with totally unique noises, same with the old Mini-Boss and Knuckles themes. Only exceptions to the rule was the Competition theme, and Blue Spheres keeps the song style of the rest of the music but has its own unique drum snare or something.
     
  11. OKei

    OKei

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    I'm fairly certain that's kinda both the reasoning applied and the result, according to the quote seen in Sonic Jam, by none other than Iizuka-san:

    ...since with 3 we had the music done in-house [sic], we were able to have a whole lot of music made up for us. We picked out from that selection the music that fit each zone best.
    Takashi Iizuka, Sonic Jam Official Guide[5]

    If they were strict on their critiqued selection, then I wonder what they thought about all the tracks MJ's team submitted that didn't make it to the final game...? Did they think they just sucked?
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
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  12. I can't wait for the game to release just so that way this thread can get back on topic lol.
     
  13. Mastered Realm

    Mastered Realm

    A green crystal Member







    Proto KTE theme is literally the most liked video of the proto OST on youtube. People love it and it honestly sounds better than the final S3 theme.




    Maybe they changed his theme in SK because we get to know his backstory and he's not a villain at all.

    That doesn't make sense to me. Final competition sounds worse than the proto theme; proto CNz1 is a great song and honestly sounds better than the final track; final CNz2 sounds lacking compared to proto CNz2, final LBz2 sounds lacking compared to proto LBz2, and if they thought the proto Miniboss theme didn't sound good they wouldn't re-add it in Sonic & Knuckles.

    Honestly, two tracks in the proto OST sound worse than Final: IceCap 1 and Launch Base 1. They do sound worse, I won't twist any logic here to avoid admitting to the fact, but we have evidence pointing to the fact both are incomplete conversions. There's missing drums, looping problems, etc.

    I don't think it's fair to say the compositions are worse judging by the crappy midis we got and the incomplete conversions in the prototype. With Jun adding some production value to the songs I think we'll be able to choose sides better after the 23rd.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
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  14. KingOfBunnies

    KingOfBunnies

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    Let's be real. Even when it does release, it's not going to get back on topic.
     
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  15. CaseyAH_

    CaseyAH_

    human incarnation of Palmtree Panic 'P' Mix Member
    Y'all are talking about which songs "suck" and which ones don't as if it isn't an entirely subjective thing that everyone is going to have a differing opinion on.
     
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  16. Lurker

    Lurker

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    After hearing the Sonic Generations "Remastered" Sonic 3&K tracks I don't have high hopes for these new "Remasters". These could just be the MIDI tracks with slightly more fitting instruments.

    I hope I'm wrong though
     
  17. Mastered Realm

    Mastered Realm

    A green crystal Member
    The "Target" remixes in Generations are completely new MIDI transcriptions of the OG tracks, as the MIDI data doesn't match either set (FM/GM) in Sk Collection.

    They seem to be the initial step when producing a remix of a song when you don't get the OG project files. You ideally transcribe it to get the big picture then you start making changes.

    Anyway, those don't try to be remixes or definitive versions. They are just cool sounding transcriptions they decided to include as unlockables so they didn't go to waste as they weren't fleshed out into real mission BGM.

    Jun has probably heard the proto versions on YouTube so I hope he reimplements the changes they introduced.

    If they ended sounding like the PC versions (eg. like this):



    I think Stealth himself would remind SEGA there are better versions available.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
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  18. nesboy43

    nesboy43

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    I disagree with this on many fronts.

    Why can't people complain about the official Sonic 3 OST having songs removed? I love those songs. It isn't about what % (if any) MJ put into them.

    Where is your source that marketing forced their hand? Why didnt Naka change the soundtrack then for Sonic Jam?

    Have devs expressed this opinion or is everyone basing this theory off the proto build music?

    Either way I think fans, including those who suddenly disavow the Sonic 3 soundtrack, can agree the best option would be if Sega would give people the option of both soundtracks.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
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  19. Without MJ's generosity, SEGA would surely have to pay an awful lot to include them. As much as would prefer the originally released themes of S3 to be included, or better yet the option to swap tracks, I don't fault SEGA for opting against licensing them at this moment. I don't want to get anyone's hopes up, but I do believe there could be a slim possibility of Team Buxer's tunes eventually being offered as DLC or like an Origins Plus/Prime if the game sells well.
     
  20. CaseyAH_

    CaseyAH_

    human incarnation of Palmtree Panic 'P' Mix Member
    If having both soundtracks was an option they probably would have done it, but very obviously they cannot for reasons we will likely never fully know. As for the "Sonic 3 OST having songs removed", I really don't mind that in this situation and a lot of others clearly don't as well. Given that the alternative is having Sonic 3 spend another decade or so not having a proper updated rerelease of any kind, I think most people don't mind trading a handful of songs for an updated experience.

    Also, the original S3 songs aren't going anywhere? They still exist on the internet. Your genesis cart isn't going to magically change. Any version of S3 rereleased before this point (asides the S&K collection, obviously) isn't going to be lacking those tracks. People are going to mod them back in first chance they get. It seems like such a silly thing to fret over.
     
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