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Sonic Origins Collection - General Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by HEDGESMFG, May 27, 2021.

  1. Naean

    Naean

    Naean H.F. (Nez Man) Member
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    I suppose in a way you could say that there are kinda 4 official versions, that is if you count separately for both the General MIDI and FM Synthesizer options in Sonic & Knuckles Collection. :V
     
  2. big smile

    big smile

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    I give Sega credit for how they are handling this. They could just toss in the PC tracks and call it a day. But they are actually going to the trouble of reworking the original tracks using the Mega Drive sound chip and even digging out the original demo tapes to use as reference. Props for the effort.
     
  3. Mastered Realm

    Mastered Realm

    A green crystal Member
    Just realized Zippo had dropped this leak 20 days before info Origins was announced in Sonic Central 2021.

    Ok, they got the music situation right, but that was predictable. What surprised me is that they did say Evening Star wouldn't be involved but other fans (Headcanon?) would.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2022
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  4. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    I guess also if this is what it takes for Sega to stop with the Sonic 3 denial I'm ok with it. Past 10 years it's been like "lol no it was Sonic 1, 2, CD, & Knuckles. What's a 3"

    Also the music changing makes the delistings of former versions make a lot of sense, especially with Sonic 3. Maybe that was a condition, you can use Sonic 3 again but once it's done all versions that are still up that used the original songs had to be removed. Or could just be more music copyright nonsense too, at least in the case of Sonic 1 and 2.
     
  5. RDNexus

    RDNexus

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    Now that I think about it...
    AFAIR, one of my first posts here was about my vision of a modern take on the Classics.
    And one of the things included on that post was a world map with the islands and so. Now that dream came true.

    There was also my desire for a modern version of a JAM Sonic World, with mini-games, free roaming, buildings with stuff, etc.
    Unfortunately, such thing didn't come to be, but one gotta compromise xD
     
  6. Mana

    Mana

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    Zippo getting a redemption arc is the most surprising thing about all these Sonic announcements.
     
  7. nesboy43

    nesboy43

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    I'm confused by this. So the legal issue is resolved but Sega can't use the music anymore? I wonder what their terms were?

    You would think the legal issues being resolved would clear up future releases.

    This is the first I've seen of the MJ Estate actually being mentioned, the rest of the information out there was only about a few of the composers on the team.

    Wish Sega could just explain what's going on (maybe they have a legal reason they can't).
     
  8. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    Well technically replacing the music is solving the issue, the issue being music they don't have the rights for was in a game they wanted to rerelease and was preventing them from doing so.

    Might not be the solution we hoped for but it is a solution. The fun of compromise, everyone loses a little but it's better than nothing. At least given the circumstances though Sega's trying to give us the best alternative possible, which is properly composed versions of songs that were originally meant for those levels anyway. They could have just slapped in the midis from the PC version, not finish the proto track versions, or they could have composed Lego dimensions esq sound a likes which is kind of insulting in its own right.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2022
  9. nesboy43

    nesboy43

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    Was this the issue? Or was the issue that composers were not paid for prior rereleases?

    I wish we had confirmation on what actually happened.

    I'm now wondering why the songs were replaced in Sonic and Knuckles Collection but not future rereleases like Mega Collection, Classics Collection (DS), and Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection. Heck, Sonic Jam also came out the same year but had the original tracks in the game.

    It seems like at some point in 1997 Sega was concerned about the MJ music and used new midi versions of proto tracks in their place.

    Now 25 years later they are effectively doing the same.
     
  10. ItsBrieDude

    ItsBrieDude

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    The way I see it, this is an absolute win that we're getting "finished" versions of these tracks. If anyone can make them shine, it's Jun.
     
  11. Mastered Realm

    Mastered Realm

    A green crystal Member
    While I love Jun, Masayuki Nagao (who arranged Hydrocity 2, proto Carnival Night 2, proto Launch Base 2, Competition and others!) would be my first choice.

    The guy is just too good!
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2022
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  12. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    Every other version of Sonic 3 was emulated. Music copyright is weird and very specific. It could have slipped through the cracks because all other versions of Sonic 3 that were released from like 2003 - 2011 weren't modified in any significant way (the most changes was the 360/PS3 Backbone entertainment release that had a gross shell and some bad filters included). They might have had the rights to the songs for the Genesis version and only the Genesis version, but because they were just emulating the ROM they got away with it until people wanted more and that solution no longer was acceptable to fans so the only other alternative was just not to release it.

    Like maybe that could have worked again if the version of S3K in Origins was Mega Collection ROM again but I mean would anyone want that? Personally I'd rather the remake that's likely overall better, even if it means losing some songs.

    Also let's be real why didn't they change the songs in any other releases? I honestly doubt they have anyone on staff who knows how to work with Sonic 3's original code, think they'd go through the effort of doing that for a version that costs at most $5? No of course not so they'll just rerelease every other Genesis Sonic instead. That and Sonic 1 and 2 being more well known and selling better back in the day means they didn't have as much incentive (us classic Sonic diehards love S3K, but I'm willing to bet the casual gamer back then more likely knows 1 and 2)
     
  13. Mastered Realm

    Mastered Realm

    A green crystal Member
    That may be the case. The only non-emulated versions of Sonic 3 are Sonic Jam, SK Collection, and now Sonic Origins.
    Tectoy was able to license Sonic 3 in 2017 for inclusion in the memory of the Mega Drive model 1 reissue, too.

    A part of me wonders if the fans' questioning ended up alerting the composers to the issue that then led to the lawsuit.
    I bet most of them thought the game wasn't available on new devices.
     
  14. pkderbar

    pkderbar

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    I posted an interview with the composers from 2016, and this never came up once. Something prompted this decision, but Sega isn't revealing.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2022
  15. Icewarrior

    Icewarrior

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    All this talk about the Sonic 3 music reminds of these attempts at replacing those tracks in the Sonic Levels pack of Lego Dimensions :





    I always assumed if a S3&K remaster ever had to happen, they would have been able to rely on these as I think they're pretty solid IMO.
    That was, until the Sonic 3 prototype was found back in 2019.
     
  16. McAleeCh

    McAleeCh

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    I mean, they're recognisably imitating some elements of the originally-released tracks, but my main problem with these - instrument choices aside, as those would obviously be different in YM2612 versions - is that there's no clear melody line in either of these in the same way as the originals. Carnival Night sounds pretty weedy and repetitive, and Icecap is all background with no punchy lead to really get you into the song in the same way as the real version. I'm not saying these couldn't have been the basis for good alternate versions with some development, but I'd definitely think such development would have been needed to make them viable replacements for the original melodies.

    As it stands, it's all academic anyway as we now know they're using the 1993 soundtrack as the basis for those stages in this release. I'll be interested to hear what they've done to polish up those versions when the game launches two weeks from now. Got to admit, part of me wouldn't mind them revising the Launch Base percussion lines to throw a few "GO!" samples in there, haha! ; )
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2022
  17. Mastered Realm

    Mastered Realm

    A green crystal Member
    We got these what if rearrangements from Yuzoboy already:





    But honestly, I prefer having the proto tracks. It's like you get a slice of bread and then open the fridge to discover margarine in place of the butter you had.
    For this analogy, the proto tracks would be like finding a jam your grandma made instead. Different, but familiar and nice, not a bootleg of something you wanted.
     
  18. Elratauru

    Elratauru

    Little Shiny Emurralds Member
    Plot twist: Sega edited a proto rom they had laying around with these songs, leaked the proto to Drx, and then gave us a real excuse to have these tracks on this compilation, HA.

    To tell you all the truth, I'm SO finally glad that we know have confirmation it's not using the MJ tracks. I did not care which ones it used, but I just wanted some real confirmation to get out of the uncertainty. Now, it only remains to know if Jun can work his magic off by creating some cool tracks based on what they had to work with....But it's like, a weight off already: I just wanna enjoy the games again. Play them through a million times and seek out every detail again, music or not.

    Let's hope for some cool gameplays in the next days :D
     
  19. pkderbar

    pkderbar

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    This leak ended up being vindicated (I was skeptical but don't know anything about leakers or who is legit or not) - which makes some of the details alluded to in the original post interesting.

    This suggests that rather than the composers suing for compensation (which doesn't seem supported by the evidence I've seen) that it was instead the Jackson estate holding things up, but that something changed in 2018 that precipitated better negotiations. But Michael was never credited - his team was. How does the Jackson estate become involved at that point? Is it due to the recording techniques described, where the band's cues are converted into Genesis sound font?

    If Sega could have just rereleased Sonic 3 with changed music (as they appear to be doing here) then what deal with the Jackson estate was necessary? Couldn't they have just done the remaster with recreated PC music back in 2013?

    Was it just an Archie Comics/Ken Penders situation where Sega made some sort of contract or record keeping mistake that was sufficient to make all the Sonic 3 music in dispute with the estate? But in our Sonic 3 music credits thread, there are established credits for some of these songs in soundtrack materials from the mid-90s, so I really don't understand.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2022
  20. nineko

    nineko

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    One of the earlier posts in this topic said that advance copies might be sent to streamers, now I extremely doubt that they would be interested into my 8850 subscribers, but is there a procedure to apply for that? Worst case scenario they can just say no.