Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by HEDGESMFG, May 27, 2021.
"Ungrateful"? Sonic Origins is a product, not a gift.
They didn't make that much money off the sonic 1 , 2, and cd ports on mobile right? I think that they gave those out for free that bought the emulated versions.
Hey, can we not do that thing where we see some people voicing X opinion, and then later we see a different set of people voice Y opinion, so we say "why did everyone change their opinion?"
They are different people. Not everyone was saying X. Some people said Y since the beginning. Different people.
Also seconding the point that this is a product, not a gift. The consumer is never ungrateful for criticizing a product that the entire gaming community has been saying is overpriced since the first day we saw the price point.
Note that I'm saying this as someone who doesn't hate Origins and is going to buy the game and probably enjoy it a lot, but man just let people have opinions. Some of the posts I agree are rather extreme, but most of them are completely reasonable criticisms.
Idk if this is a US thing or I just got lucky, but I remember finding it at my local flea market when I was 6-8 years old. It was in a box with no label, but I always checked through all the games at a booth to see if Sonic was in there After that, I maybe only saw it once or twice for years. Plenty of Sonic 1 and 2, though.
and this is why the game is forty bucks. because the effort of making S3&K, any of these remakes, is basically making a new game with all the effort that entails, maybe the ease of having a blueprint that is the original, but not being able to use the original code, having to decompress and rip or even redraw assets etc.. development is fucking hard. you are basically making a whole game, even if its purpose is to mimic an existing one. that takes time and money.
one of the tweets in the thread also mentions that v5U of the engine has enough significant differences to require code changes to existing assets, so engine/pipeline/"tool" work also had to be done. that is more effort, more time, more money.
...I am definitely feeling my "yall only support the community when it's free" sentiment again reading back these comments lately to be honest... maybe because work has been hard for me lately and I'm feeling the strain of full-time programming work. It's one thing to go "I think it's overpriced" but insisting that you don't need to buy this because of other people's unofficial port work of the paid dev's code, strikes me as...talking the talk but not walking the walk.
What is the point of Sonic fans constantly spamming "hire this man" if they don't turn out when Sega not only hires them once but twice?
And the animation, I think people are straight up forgetting that when they're talking about the game's price.
It's interesting to see how different parts of the world handled it. Genesis games were widely available in flea markets and pawn shops.
But I remember that my Toys R US stopped selling brand new Genesis games around 2002.
I like your background on there. I wonder if Tempo will ever get rediscovered by more than just Sega kids. Just the art design more than deserves it.
I would LOVE to see videos and/screenshots of the 3D Sonic tech demos (that Naka and co supposedly made early in 3’s dev) in the museum.
I totally agree with you here: I (and many others) wanted sega to hire headcanon, they did and that’s a valid reason to support this product. Folks who feel the same as me should make it VERY clear to sega that we are supporting Origins due to the talent they hired. Sega’s making the mission mode themselves and ngl it makes me worried that Sega will think their people know enough to make a new 2D classic sonic game in the retro engine without any of the mania team. Maybe Sega could make a good 2D Rush style game but, unless Frontiers comes out with classic momentum physics and level design that makes use of it, I am convinced that no one left at Sega truly understands classic sonic’s gameplay. Tbf we don’t know how much of the mission mode will have original layouts, nor do I know how good they will be... but Sega has a history of misunderstanding what fans want and I would hate for that to repeat now.
On the topic of Retro Engine v5U being used for S3: is Mighty and Ray still built into v5U? Since Origins won’t have all characters playable in all games anyways I’d really love to see Mighty and Ray be playable in 3K if it wouldn’t involve extra work for Stealth and co. And before anyone brings up the 3K sprite style being different from Mania, I think they would look fine in 3K with their mania sprites. I mean Sega reused Tails’ Sonic 2 sprites in 3K and that looked good.
Mighty and Ray are not built into the engine, they are part of the Player Object that's in Sonic Mania. RSDK by itself only has stuff like basic collision handling, parallax layers, mode-7 effects, and an object system. Everything about the gameplay itself is handled by the code for the objects and is completely separate from the game engine. If Mania hadn't had Denuvo shoved into it, the Retro Engine code would have been all contained in the EXE file while the game code would have been in a separate Game.dll file. If they truly built their S3K remake from the ground up, then nothing from Mania would be in this.
But isn't all of Mania's code bundled in the exe anyways? Not that it would be bundled in origins but still
Yes but they aren't bundled together in the source code.
Respectfully disagreed. In S3 A.I.R. the smooth sprite rotations are always praised, and I have never seen a single negative objection to those from a mainstream or core-gamer audience. And I have never (which means not even once) seen people complaining about wanting those smooth sprite rotations disabled in S3 A.I.R. due to being obstructive to the experience or making the game look or feel worse. It's always positive. Sure you might have a number of exceptions in super specific places dedicated to Sonic and retro gaming - like, well, Sonic Retro - but in general, even core gamers like and prefer smooth sprite rotations.
What's more, let us not forget how widely disseminated emulation is, and how every kid above the age of 11 can easily emulate and play the classic games, so the 8-way system is always available (but then again, I don't see people wanting to revert back to "normal s3K" after playing A.I.R. and the niceties of smooth sprite rotation, smoother ring animations and the benefits of widescreen)
In whatever case, yes: The most sensible option would have been to have a simple menu toggle. Which we won't have, 99% guaranteed.
The trailers and elements of what little we do see does make it seem like this is a collection that's going to be pretty "vanilla" in terms of the core game sets, from rotations, to gameplay elements. Would it be nice if the Museum wasn't just concept art and music but had unlockable features like earning that Drop Dash, or the seventh Emerald in Sonic 1, or Elemental Shields in 1+2? Sure. But I feel like we'll have to re-enable missing functionality the old-fashioned way with cheat code hacks or mods, unfortunately.
Probably makes their Classic mode stuff way easier to manage that way, too.
Speaking of the Museum, the Steam page currently says the following:
Complete various missions to collect coins to unlock new content, challenges, and Special Stages through the Museum".
This is very strange wording... why does it say 'Special Stages through the museum'? Does this mean anything? We've already seen Blue Spheres isn't in the Museum, it's in the Sonic 3K menu, so it couldn't be referring to that. "Challenges" is most certainly referring to unlocking more missions in mission mode, and "content" is self-explanatory, so I'm confused what they mean by the third thing.
It's also 11pm so i may be reading too far into a typo
I think it'd be really dope if we're getting more Sonic Mania special stages via the museum with new gimmicks and such. I feel that there's a lot of untapped potential in that format.
Sonic Jam had a mode where you could play a each game's 6/7 Special Stages consecutively. Maybe there will be something similar in Origins?
This isn't a counter argument, but I figure that it's worth pointing out the great thing about being a programmer in a community with such a developed ROM hacking scene: you could just do (or not do) these things yourself. Want smooth sprite rotation? You can add it! Want widescreen? You can do that too! Want to keep Sonic 1's spike bug? You don't have to remove it!
Of course not everyone wants to invest a bunch of time into learning programming. But, speaking as someone who already has, it's odd to see people hoping for features to be (or not be) in this version as if they're completely at this game's mercy to experience the old Sonic games the way they want.
Personally, the thought of purchasing this hadn't even crossed my mind until a few days ago: why spend $40 for something that I can do myself while making it better suited to my tastes? Sure, it would save me a lot of time, but programming's my hobby: I usually have more fun programming these games than playing them anyway.
Perhaps if the hacking community was fostered a bit more, we'd have a community full of people who could experience Sonic Their Way(TM).
I mean, I'm buying this in part because I can mod it. To what extent is to be seen, but in general the Retro Engine makes a lot of things a lot easier than the Megadrive, which is something I enjoy.
"Would you like that gift wrapped?"
"No sir, just product-wrapped would be fine."
What I'd like to know is, once I unlock every item can I have lives back in 16:9? Because coins won't do anything at that point anyway.
In my mind, it's more like wishing for the perfect representation of the games for the public who won't care to actually go for the alternatives or mods, the kinds of people who will call the remakes "ports" and think that's exactly what it is - so why not actually make that what it is?
To me, the ideal version, the pie-in-the-sky dream, is this collection being built off of Sonic Jam to make it the perfect representation of the games both as they were and as a new edition. I'm not saying make a new Sonic world (or even use the old one) but if the missions and the cutscenes and widescreen and everything else was applied to those versions it'd be pretty much perfect and I'd be pushing for people to get it right now.
I know that's probably the biggest ask on the planet (which Is why it was never an ask from me, I knew it'd be too good to happen), I know the fanbase is so used to "fixing" everything or doing it themselves, but would it not be great to say "Yes, the games play exactly how they used to, you don't need a Genesis and you don't need an emulator and fan hacks, just go play"?
I guess it's the worst kind of nitpicking, the one you don't really realize you're doing until someone's like "I don't care", and you almost seem like you're not appreciative of anything about what you are getting, but it seems that's just what happens sometimes.
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