Sonic Origins Collection - General Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by HEDGESMFG, May 27, 2021.

  1. Positive that I've wondered this out loud/in text here before, but is Cirocco Jones actually a reliable source? Hasn't he falsely claimed credit and misremembered songs before?
     
  2. The Joebro64

    The Joebro64

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    I'm not 100% but I should note that yeah, it is worth taking his claims with a grain of salt. As far as we know, he could be wrong that Sega owes him money for Sonic 3 rereleases, especially considering that, to our knowledge, his work never made it into the game.
     
  3. _oliver

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    I just find it odd that sega has kept silent on this one. They have no real reason to, and it's one of the main points of discussion surrounding the game, so why keep quiet?
     
  4. Yash

    Yash

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    Probably because if there is any ongoing legal drama they don’t want to shine a spotlight on it.

    Like I said, my expectation is that whatever route they go with the soundtrack, they’re not going to say a word about it. It’s not “Sonic 3 with original/changed music,” it’s just Sonic 3.
     
  5. Londinium

    Londinium

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    I remember a long time ago, IGN put out this video:



    It's the first 13 minutes of Sonic Mania Plus (and believe it or not, the person playing actually knows how to play a Sonic game :p), the video was uploaded a week before Sonic Mania Plus released.

    I'm hoping that Sega does something similar with Sonic Origins (and by extension, Sonic Frontiers). If we get lucky, we might get to see once and for all what music S3&K is using.

    Only time will tell.
     
  6. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

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    S3K's music debacle is not a matter of widespread public interest. You have to have at least some level of immersion in the fandom to even know the replacement tracks exist. Sonic games are not catered to the hardcore fans because that's not where the money is. Whether there's legal trouble or not, the general audience reaction is going to be that this is the first they've even heard of the issue. You have a choice between "why is this music different" and "what do you mean the music could have been different but wasn't", and neither of those sell copies.
     
  7. HEDGESMFG

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    What does Sony have to do with this?
     
  8. Sony holds the rights to Michael Jackson's music. They may or may not be party to any alleged licensing issues.
     
  9. SEGACast

    SEGACast

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    Even if they were to end up using the Sonic & Knuckles Collection/Prototype soundtrack (or the other way around if you prefer), You'd think that it would be rather easy to make a mod with the music changed? Although, not everyone knows how to make a mod or wants to download them, especially if it was for anything other than PC.

    Either way, I like both soundtracks. For me, the prototype music gives almost the same amount of nostalgia that you'd get from the original. Especially Ice Cap Zone's.
     
  10. Laura

    Laura

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    I feel like considering they are re releasing it after a period of no re releases that they probably resolved the music issues for Origins.

    But it's just baseless speculation. We know nothing about SEGAs legal issues with the soundtrack.

    Should just wait until release.
     
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  11. The 60,000 downloads quote from Cirocco was and still is an oddly specific number to claim.. it leans more towards this being a royalties issue than anything else.. I still thought that his message, as vague as it was, was kind of eye opening considering he said that they didn’t sign over their work to SEGA as a work for hire team.

    Can anyone who has any law experience please clarify the following: are the laws for music copyright different between the US and Japan? I always thought that Japanese video game companies always get the rights to someone’s compositions for any game music but in the US it’s more of a complicated process??

    It would explain why Sonic 3 was rereleased before with the music intact.. perhaps there was a miscommunication between both parties and the Japanese assumed that they own the rights to the songs, while the American composers feel like they deserve royalties.

    I think the end result will be Origins including the beta tracks all the way, or they somehow struck a deal to use the MJ tracks but there is a more specific contract to split royalties.

    Again this is just me going into speculation mode so take everything with a pinch of salt and if anyone can clarify, please do so
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2022
  12. pkderbar

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    Sega pays Masato Nakamura royalties on the Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 music in any subsequent rerelease, so I don't think it's quite as simple as they own the rights to the music.
     
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  13. pkderbar

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  14. Yeah idk how I forgot to mention the relationship with Nakamura.. SEGA still owns the performance rights to the 16 bit versions of those OSTs (I think?) so they just pay him the licensing fees/royalties to use the tracks when needed for game re-releases; with Sonic 3 perhaps there was miscommunication on who owns the rights to what exactly

    With the exception of Sonic CD, all the OSTs for the Genesis classics were done by outside composers so ofc royalties will play a role here
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2022
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  15. pkderbar

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    The retro wiki has a wealth of information aggregated on Sonic 3's music (https://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_3/Development/Music) which has been workshopped in this thread (https://forums.sonicretro.org/index...ckles-quest-for-music-composer-research.38949), but it's clear that it isn't an issue with the entire soundtrack, since SOME of the Sonic 3 music has appeared over the years in rereleases or remixes. Given that only the specific tracks missing from the PC Version have conspicuously never reappeared in any other media, it is reasonable to assume that some aspect of their composition was fundamentally different from the tracks that have appeared.

    My speculation (for what it's worth), is that Brad Buxer holds the answers to this. He was the one who has a pattern of reusing his compositions (his own IP in the Hard Times/Ice Cap example, or in reverse with the Credits/Stranger in Moscow.) Perhaps Buxer provided compositions based on material performed, produced, or contributed by Cirocco Jones / Bobby Brooks / others in the Michael Jackson orbit at that time. If this was an ongoing legal concern though, wouldn't there be some kind of evidence that would have made it out to the public by now? How would anyone afford to continue litigating this for nearly 30 years?
     
  16. Im just as surprised as you are that this has not come to light at any point.. perhaps if there was a lawsuit, there were some very strict guidelines to not make the information public, because I know in some instances any sort of lawsuit filed would be considered public record.. I guess it depends on the severity of the case.

    But anyway.. not to go too far off topic, we were promised more Origins details after April 20th and it’s almost been a month with more silence. I know the release date is 6 weeks away so we might not get anything significant, but even the slightest bit would help
     
  17. Forte

    Forte

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    It would be cool if they give us an option to use Knuckles Sprites from beta.
    A man can dream.

    I believe we will get beta music. Remember the lost Tokyo Toy prototype? I wouldn't be surprised if Sega relearned just recently, that the community restored the Sonic 3 beta with proto tracks and saw it as an opportunity to resolve StH3 music problems.
     
  18. SystemsReady

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    the production in particular. the backing synths still could be plopped into a modern electronic track without blinking, and that's after being translated to the Genesis hardware.
     
  19. HEDGESMFG

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    (IANAL, But I am close to one and so discuss these issues regularly based on what's known. I also follow multiple franchises that have these types of rights issues, as they effect many more modern games and TV shows than you might think.)

    I think the key issue is that when a game publisher contracts an outsider for composition, that can lead to all sorts of complex legal arrangements and reproduction agreements. Rights to perform the music are often agreed in very specific terms based on very explicit details in the contract itself, and digital re-releases, remakes, or other such things can often trigger a need to newly renegotiate those music rights. This is very common in the streaming world for titles that use popular themes composed or influenced by very specific bands (See: The original 1980s Wonder Years song, itself already a cover of a Beatles song, which had to be entirely replaced by a new cover and a new singer for the Netflix digital and non-US syndication releases due to the original contract only covering broadcasting rights, not digital streaming rights, or the numerous complex issues MST3K has run into with re-releases over the years.)

    Sometimes, you get cases where a publisher might agree to allow a song to be covered or released only in a specific market, but will not allow an international release without new royalty payments being made. There's a famous example of this in the 1980s anime Zeta Gundam where 3 of US artist Neil Sedaka's songs were used to create the opening and ending titles for the series (then given new lyrics in Japanese). The agreement is entirely legitimate, as Neil Sedaka even provided an unreleased song for the show's second opening (similar to the Brad Buxer and the Ice Cap situation), but their initial contract only covered airing and distribution rights within Japan and Asia. US and EU rights were never part of the original contract, so the western releases of this show exclude these songs entirely. The songs and even covers of the song are still regularly released in Japan, but completely excluded in all western markets. While not an exact scenario, this is a good example of just how narrow a musical publishing/cover contract can be when it comes to a property between the west and Japan.

    Again, we can't read SEGA's contract with Jackson's team, so we can ultimately only speculate what this means. However, when Sonic Origins releases, I think we'll get the final answer to whether or not this issue has ever been resolved. If the music is there and remastered like in S1/S2, we'll know Sega resolved the issue. If the music is all replaced? Expect SEGA to sweep it under the rug and never use those tunes again no matter how big the backlash was, and expect a version of Sonic 3 with the original music to likely never get sold again by the publisher.

    Edit: Also, as one last crucial point, 'if' the songs were not composed under a "work for hire" contract as C. Jones stated, that means Sega may have just walked off without paying royalties for future re-releases of the title. This could very well be the case when Michael departed (or was intentionally removed) from the project, leading to a much more complex legal breach of contract. If true, SEGA would continue to own money for many years whenever the games get re-released if the music isn't replaced. https://help.songtrust.com/knowledge/what-does-it-mean-when-a-song-is-a-work-for-hire

    To make that again clear, we won't know that without seeing the artist contracts from 1994, or without a court case somehow going public. This only gets murkier when international distribution rights and several different artists are involved. It seems fairly evident that SEGA has rights to everything that's not the 10 MJ/Buxer Team songs, but beyond that we don't know. This is the last I want to discuss of the subject until we hear more news, personally. I say let's move on. We already know mods can fix this in a few mere days on PC, if even sooner. That should still be easy to fix even with Denuvo, most likely.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2022
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  20. President Zippy

    President Zippy

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    Oddly enough, the first time I played Sonic 3 was S&K Collection on my parents' Win98 box as a wee lad. I also distinctly remember finding a bunch of strange music files in WAV format that sounded great, but I didn't know what they were: that was the first time I discovered the Japanese soundtrack to Sonic CD. That PC port was odd in a lot of ways, but I'm glad it exists and if I could do it all over again I would still play that version first, even if it is objectively inferior to the Gen/MD version. There were a ton of extra goodies on the CD-ROM including the aforementioned music and a pack of screensavers. There were even WAV files of the Sonic 1 soundtrack if I remember correctly. I could be wrong on some of this, some of the goodies might have been on the Win9x port of Sonic CD, but between the two discs I am absolutely certain all of the stuff I just described was there.

    I remember when computers were fun and just being able to do anything on them was entertaining. There was a point in time when Windows was a better experience than any Unix-like product- like SGI IRIX except regular people could afford it. I'll admit Win98 SE was full of bugs and a great attack surface, but so much stuff was fun. It came with Free Cell, Solitaire, and Space Cadet Pinball. Most of the sound effects were ear candy, even when it was a notification that some attempted operation failed. Even just moving files around was fun- just to see that I could do something.

    I use FreeBSD and MacOS now, but it is not fun to me the way Windows 98 was back in 1998-2002. Upgrading to an XP box marked the death of intrinsic enjoyment in the act of using a computer for me. Now it's just a means to an end, and I couldn't care less about the obscure features on my crappy walled-garden Macbook, the woefully-incomplete BSDs, the myriad buggy Linux distributions, or the intrusive modern Windows.

    Sorry to get so far off-topic, but I can't help being wistful about more innocent times when computers were not oppressive, but just fun.