Sonic Origins Collection - General Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by HEDGESMFG, May 27, 2021.

  1. Yeah, dey good.

    does slightly help that I was the one who made that mod but at the end of the day they are really just good tracks.

    Oh yeah most definitely, he's full of it.
     
  2. Overlord

    Overlord

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    I've said it before, I'll say it again - he throws random shit at the walls and some of it sticks by the sheer amount he's throwing out, especially the more obvious-when-you-think-about-it ones.

    Can we draw a line under it here and stop giving him the oxygen of publicity, please?
     
  3. Shaddy the guy

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    If it weren't for the consequences of misleading people and being a ponce, I'd actually think it'd be fun to analyze the methodology that goes into leaks, fake or otherwise (even many "true" ones are peppered with little falsehoods). Do we have a list or repository of alleged Frontiers leaks? I only remember the first 4chan one and then another that seemed mostly copied from it with a couple of obvious details like "the music is good" or changing "Unleashed style" to "Generations style".
     
  4. _oliver

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    I'd attribute the majority of zippo's correct sonic leaks to just educated guesses.
     
  5. Snowbound

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    SOAH City made a list of all the leaks they viewed as being legit in December 2021 https://soahcity.com/2021/12/12/sonic-frontiers-leaks-and-timeline/

    Completely agree! This is something that a lot of “leakers” do. I’m not saying there aren’t any legit leaks; just that it’s best to err on the side of caution.

    For instance there’s a leak that was posted on April 1st of all days that a lot of folks believe to be real.* At first glance I understand why: it predicted a new Jet Set Radio and Virtual Fighter shortly before Sega talked about bringing these franchises back as part of it’s super games initiative.** Additionally the leak correctly ID’d Powehouse as making the animations for Origins. This appears damning as Powerhouse had done no prior work with Sonic... however they have recently done animation for Sega on Super Monkey Ball Banana Mania.*** Given that this “leaker” is a fan of all sega properties it’s possible that powerhouse was an educated guess and everything else was just a wish list from a Sega fan who got lucky. The Sonic 5 stuff is also building off previous rumors SOAHcity has posted regarding a cancelled modern 2D Sonic game.**** Time will tell if this leak is legit as there are other aspects to this “leak” (such as Frontiers having multiple characters) that could prove or disprove it. That said it’s also possible this fella just threw a bunch at the wall and got lucky (as Overlord pointed out about Zippo).

    Sources:
    *https://www.reddit.com/r/SonicFront...urce=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
    ** https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...y-taxi-jet-set-radio-to-chase-fortnite-riches + https://hypebeast.com/2022/4/sega-super-game-project-crazy-taxi-jet-set-radio-reboot-info
    *** https://www.powerhouseanimation.com/Work/super-monkey-ball/
    **** https://soahcity.com/2022/03/16/rumor-unannounced-2d-modern-sonic-title-has-been-cancelled/
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2022
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  6. President Zippy

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    I'm surprised anyone gives any credence to any rumors about the S3 soundtrack being replaced. The United States and Japan have publicly visible copyright, trademark, and patent databases, and nowhere in them is there any record of the Michael Jackson estate claiming ownership of any part of the S3 soundtrack.

    Michael Jackson disowned his own work on the S3 soundtrack because he felt dissatisfied with the sound quality of his work on Gen/MD hardware, at least according to his touring musicians who worked on S3 with him. I find it hard to believe he didn't want his name attached to inferior work, yet attached his name to it by filing for a copyright.

    This is speculation on my part, but I think the S&K Collection dev team used the proto soundtrack because it could be converted more faithfully to the awful MIDI synthesizers on a mid-late 90s WinTel box. If I could describe a perfect antithesis to the "clean" sound of crappy MIDI music, it would be the crunchy percussion and intentionally-distorted bass sounds of Sonic 3, Comix Zone, or The Hybrid Front.

    More importantly, too many people would be pissed off if Sega changed the soundtrack in Sonic Origins without warning. The S&K Collection was a low-expectation "fuck-it" project, but Sonic Origins is aimed at millions of people.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2022
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  7. Prototype

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    So, I haven't entirely been following the list of updates about this project.

    Am I correct that they were going to do a story mode with cutscenes that links all the games together into a cohesive narrative, or was that just a rumour?

    I ask just because I wonder if Sonic 3 starts with the surfboard intro instead of Super Sonic assuming you never collected all the Chaos Emeralds in S2?
     
  8. Starduster

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    There’s a broad line between between being dissatisfied a creative work to the point disowning it and then actually telling someone else they can use it. As far as I’m aware there’s never been any source or record stating what MJ’s decision with the music was, whether he wanted the music scrapped altogether or whether he was content to just walk away and let SEGA use it, but if it’s the former, then that’s probably why the game’s been in purgatory for so long. And to be quite frank, I think it’s plain as day that there are, or at least were legal issues surrounding those tracks indicating MJ’s involvement.

    At any rate, I’d like to believe that the reason they’re finally doing this is because those issues have been cleared up, because otherwise the suggestion is that SEGA just didn’t know about the prototype tracks for their own game, which I find highly dubious.
     
  9. RikohZX

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    Basically you get animated scenes at the start and end of each game, though whether these are just cliff notes highlights of the games like what the trailer implied, or try to tie them together better by adding genuine story snippets, is up in the air.
     
  10. medj

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    That's a nice one.
    I've always liked this cover.

     
  11. nesboy43

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    I think it was a musician (Sirroco or Brad Buxer) that said there was an ongoing lawsuit.

    For all we know it is a lawsuit from one or multiple musicians who worked on the soundtrack. The lawsuit may not even be MJ related.

    Edit:

    https://www.vg247.com/sonic-3-ost-michael-jackson-history

    Looks like the lawsuit is about people being unpaid for their work in Sonic 3, not about MJ not being credited which many people seem to mention.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2022
  12. Laura

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    Sorry to go into speculation ville but I don't think enough people consider the possibility that Sonic 3 And Knuckles PC has a different soundtrack by accident. It wasn't uncommon in those days for PC ports to be based on outdated prototypes. Look at FF7 and Halo for other examples at the time. We know they used the Proto tracks late in development. They might well have been given an early prototype by accident and just based the MIDI music off that without checking.

    I'm not saying that's the reason why the soundtrack changed. Who knows? But I don't think we can discount it as a possibility.

    I think PC Collection is a red herring to be honest. Jam was ported with the original music and they re released Sonic 3 with the original music for years before staying well clear. We can't be sure when the music issues actually started. May well have started long after PC Collection.
     
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  13. Yash

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    I think the truth is likely that the Sonic 3 music situation is more complicated and legally entangled than most people assume, and "Sega can't release Sonic 3 because it has Michael Jackson songs" is just the easy narrative that got picked up on and telephoned around the internet when Sega conspicuously stopped including it in compilations and such. Michael Jackson is such a huge, known quantity with a long legacy of weird legal shit that if anything, people associate him with more now than his actual music, so it becomes a more interesting talking point when you bring up his involvement.

    There seems to be a legal minefield that for whatever reason Sega only became much more conscious of tripping over in the 2010s, maybe when the Michael Jackson involvement became more common knowledge and people started focusing more on Cirocco, Brad Buxer etc. and their involvement in the game, especially with the Hard Times-Icecap connection blowing up. The last time Sonic 3 has been re-released in any capacity was S3K on Steam in 2011, whereas Sonic 1, 2 and even Spinball and 3D Blast have seen countless re-releases - AtGames even included Sonic & Knuckles in their mini Genesis consoles, but explicitly said they couldn't do Sonic 3 because of licensing issues with the music when they were originally signed on to produce Sega's official Genesis mini.

    I think we'll only get a definitive answer on whether the music rights issues have been cleared up when Origins comes out and whether the original tracks are included or not. And whichever route they go, I highly doubt Sega themselves will ever comment on it, what arrangements had to be made, etc. It'll always just be an extraordinarily curious episode in the franchise's history.
     
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  14. HEDGESMFG

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    Again, my money is on SEGA using the music and breaking some major contracts by doing so, which could include amounts owed to 'both' the Jackson Estate, as well as the individual musicians. That Bobby Brooks quote is the most telling of all. And frankly, our work uncovering the origins of the music may only have made this whole situation much worse. Imagine a legal situation similar to the Ken Penders ordeal, only with SEGA being more clearly in the wrong here and the artists not being full of it is my best guess.

    Now, whether or not the music is included or replaced remains the real question we'll be stuck with. Whatever the case, the music rights held back the game for many years and they've found a solution of some kind to get the game out now, whatever it is.

    6 weeks to go.
     
  15. Yash

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    My guess is we'll see replacement tracks and Sega will refuse to comment on it when asked, but we'll see. I think you're right that this is probably a case more than anything of Sega screwing over the original musicians, just because I'm naturally going to be more sympathetic to an individual creator than a giant corporation when it comes to situations like these.

    Ironically I've always also been of the mindset that Penders was more or less in the right (or at the very least, that he's not so much the bad guy as Sega and Archie's incompetence) and that it's a good thing for creators to retain more rights over their characters, but that he is quite possibly the worst person to benefit from this, lol.
     
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  16. John Chrysler

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    I really don't side with either the individual or the company at first unless more evidence suggest that one is more right than the other.
     
  17. pkderbar

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    I've been a part of this community since the original Qjimbo Michael Jackson video back in 2006, so yes, I'm aware of how long it's taken to get to this point. If this article didn't have a clickbait headline and just covered the history, I'd have no gripes, but as you say the "informed speculation" is inaccurate and framing the article as "Here's Why" is nonsensical given they have no facts related to the current situation.
     
  18. BlueSkiesAM2

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    I highly doubt there was a direct problem between Sega and Jackson. I mean the guy worked with Sega on Space Channel 5 and Part 2 years after Sonic 3 released. Considering he liked Sonic enough to request to work on the game, I'd be surprised if he wasn't aware that "his" songs were still in there.
     
  19. Sparks

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    To this day I'm left mildly annoyed and amused at the same time by Bobby Brooks' response to the situation. I wonder if he's still tense about the situation 10 years later.
     
  20. The Joebro64

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    Cirocco Jones commented in May 2020 that Sega owed the MJ crew for what he said was 60,000 retro downloads since they didn't sign a work-for-hire and therefore didn't sign the rights over to Sega. So it sounds like some legal wrangling was still ongoing relatively recently, though whether Brooks was involved is unknown (he does mention "our crew", which could include Brooks). (Although some suggestions indicate that Sony was the bigger issue preventing Sonic 3 rereleases.)
     
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