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Sonic Next Gen 2004 E3 Demo

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Mr Lange, Feb 1, 2011.

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  1. Shadow Hog

    Shadow Hog

    "I'm a superdog!" Member
    <!--quoteo(post=558861:date=Feb 15 2011, 08:44 AM:name=n00neimp0rtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (n00neimp0rtant @ Feb 15 2011, 08:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=558861">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread makes me feel kinda bad that I never really made much of an attempt to actually play the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Don't. The game was a horrible, glitchy mess, and it only really went downhill from White Acropolis. (I suppose Crisis City was kinda cool, but Flame Core can kindly screw itself.)

    <!--quoteo(post=558861:date=Feb 15 2011, 08:44 AM:name=n00neimp0rtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (n00neimp0rtant @ Feb 15 2011, 08:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=558861">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alas, the only way I'll ever find out what happens is someday, many years from now, when a daring team of Sonic hackers start a project to recreate Sonic 06 using the infinitely-more-playable SADX engine.

    Hey, it could happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Or you could, I dunno, <a href="http://lparchive.org/Sonic-The-Hedgehog-2006/" target="_blank">watch the Let's Play of it</a>. I did, and I don't usually even CARE for LPs.
     
  2. Fuzedknight

    Fuzedknight

    Epic Gnome Time! Member
    <!--quoteo(post=558885:date=Feb 15 2011, 07:10 AM:name=Shadow Hog)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shadow Hog @ Feb 15 2011, 07:10 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=558885">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=558861:date=Feb 15 2011, 08:44 AM:name=n00neimp0rtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (n00neimp0rtant @ Feb 15 2011, 08:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=558861">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This thread makes me feel kinda bad that I never really made much of an attempt to actually play the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Don't. The game was a horrible, glitchy mess, and it only really went downhill from White Acropolis. (I suppose Crisis City was kinda cool, but Flame Core can kindly screw itself.)

    <!--quoteo(post=558861:date=Feb 15 2011, 08:44 AM:name=n00neimp0rtant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (n00neimp0rtant @ Feb 15 2011, 08:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=558861">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alas, the only way I'll ever find out what happens is someday, many years from now, when a daring team of Sonic hackers start a project to recreate Sonic 06 using the infinitely-more-playable SADX engine.

    Hey, it could happen.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Or you could, I dunno, <a href="http://lparchive.org/Sonic-The-Hedgehog-2006/" target="_blank">watch the Let's Play of it</a>. I did, and I don't usually even CARE for LPs.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Damn that let's play was funny to watch, kudos to that guy for bearing through the whole game without stopping. Atleast they had fun about it.
     
  3. GeneHF

    GeneHF

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    It's a shame. Flame Core was a nifty level since a post apocalyptic volcanic landscape hadn't been done in 3D Sonic before (volcanic interior, however, has) and it, ideally, should have been a great level.

    But much like this whole game, it dropped the ball and smashed its face into the pavement.
     
  4. BlazeHedgehog

    BlazeHedgehog

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    <!--quoteo(post=553717:date=Feb 1 2011, 03:17 PM:name=Polygon Jim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Polygon Jim @ Feb 1 2011, 03:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=553717">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Also there is something I would like to add. You do all realize this was a prerendered video to try and bring hype to the game right? It was impossible in 2005 to have that many polygons onscreen at a time while getting a perfect, solid 30FPS. If the shooting rings at enemys in the one room is real they probably just switched to a bad tech demo once the camera on the video zoomed into Sonics head.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I for one do not think it was pre-rendered. You can say "Well it was impossible in 2005", but I really don't think it was. When all you're doing is showing an animated cutscene like that, there's a lot of things you can cheat to get good performance.

    If that was a GAME world you could run around in and see from every possible angle? Yeah, no, you're right. If you see the original TGS 2005 gameplay footage from when the game was originally announced, the game is running at like 50% speed.

    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/PIdfwF30Lcs&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/PIdfwF30Lcs&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->

    But consider the PS2 tech demos to what the PS2 itself was eventually able to accomplish. Those were, according to Sony, also "real time", and you had stuff like the Ridge Racer demo with a single high-detail character with cloth and hair physics, or the Gran Turismo demo using PS1 assets to render cinematic motion blur.

    When you don't have to worry about game logic and the player having the ability to swing the camera 360 degrees, that frees up a lot of room for other stuff.

    <a href="http://all-things-andy-gavin.com/2011/02/04/making-crash-bandicoot-part-3/" target="_blank">Ask Naughty Dog</a>: Lock the camera down to a fixed path, and you can pull off all kinds of occlusion tricks.

    Also consider that Xbox 360 devkits have twice as much memory as retail units do - this lead to a lot of fun confusion early in the 360's lifecycle where you'd see a live demo at E3 for a game and it ran silky smooth off the devkit and then you'd get it home in to your console and there were framerate problems galore.
     
  5. Polygon Jim

    Polygon Jim

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    Comparing odd quirks in the PS1 hardware to current hardware means nothing. The effects, animations, and amount of polygons in that scene just weren't possible at that time, especially with Segas programmers. Having the camera along a set path doesn't stop lag at all. It would get the same speed while moving the camera around, as it's still rendering the exact same scene. While you are right about a cutscene taking less power as it doesn't need to tax the CPU with ingame logic for everything that scene is still too much for the system at the time especially with the programmers behind it.

    There is no doubt in my mind that scene was a prerendered video.


    As an example here are other things from the same year.

    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FE0l98yz1_4&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FE0l98yz1_4&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->
    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/XRy_w-JQl0Y&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/XRy_w-JQl0Y&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->
    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ih6-lczO3Nk&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ih6-lczO3Nk&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->

    Also regarding those PS2 tech demo's they're nothing impressive at all and plenty of the later PS2 games push the console far more.
     
  6. Clutch

    Clutch

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    Oddly enough, screencaps from the video are still the only "screenshots" advertising the game on Xbox LIVE despite the video itself being MIA.
     
  7. BlazeHedgehog

    BlazeHedgehog

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    <!--quoteo(post=559130:date=Feb 15 2011, 07:53 PM:name=Polygon Jim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Polygon Jim @ Feb 15 2011, 07:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=559130">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Comparing odd quirks in the PS1 hardware to current hardware means nothing. The effects, animations, and amount of polygons in that scene just weren't possible at that time, especially with Segas programmers. Having the camera along a set path doesn't stop lag at all. It would get the same speed while moving the camera around, as it's still rendering the exact same scene. While you are right about a cutscene taking less power as it doesn't need to tax the CPU with ingame logic for everything that scene is still too much for the system at the time especially with the programmers behind it.

    There is no doubt in my mind that scene was a prerendered video.

    As an example here are other things from the same year.

    [King Kong]
    [Call of Duty 2]
    [Need for Speed: Most Wanted]

    Also regarding those PS2 tech demo's they're nothing impressive at all and plenty of the later PS2 games push the console far more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Everything you just linked, however, was gameplay footage. When you have physics, and enemy A.I., and a world that is designed to be viewed from 360 degrees.

    When you cut all that "videogame" stuff out of the picture, however, and are just displaying a cutscene - with a fixed camera, in a fixed location, you only ever have to display what the camera is seeing at any given second. Go back to the image you yourself posted:

    <!--quoteo(post=553558:date=Feb 1 2011, 06:51 AM:name=Polygon Jim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Polygon Jim @ Feb 1 2011, 06:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=553558">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[​IMG]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The only thing present in that cutscene is what the camera can see at any given moment. It's a self-contained area created for one purpose: A cutscene.

    Also way to miss my point about the tech demos - yes, the PS2 eventually surpassed some of those tech demos, but how many years was it? Four? Five? Six? There are games that look better and run as smooth than the Sonic 2K6 "Behind closed doors" animation out today, too. The "real time" PS2 tech demos should have been impossible then, too.

    But they actually weren't. They were just tech demos of somebody going "Okay, we're gonna have this extremely detailed character model walk out, look at the camera and wink, but it's not going to chop up because she's literally the only thing on screen."

    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/jIyu4Aozwbw&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/jIyu4Aozwbw&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->

    You see what I'm getting at here?
     
  8. Polygon Jim

    Polygon Jim

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    <!--quoteo(post=559153:date=Feb 15 2011, 07:31 PM:name=BlazeHedgehog)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BlazeHedgehog @ Feb 15 2011, 07:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=559153">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=559130:date=Feb 15 2011, 07:53 PM:name=Polygon Jim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Polygon Jim @ Feb 15 2011, 07:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=559130">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Comparing odd quirks in the PS1 hardware to current hardware means nothing. The effects, animations, and amount of polygons in that scene just weren't possible at that time, especially with Segas programmers. Having the camera along a set path doesn't stop lag at all. It would get the same speed while moving the camera around, as it's still rendering the exact same scene. While you are right about a cutscene taking less power as it doesn't need to tax the CPU with ingame logic for everything that scene is still too much for the system at the time especially with the programmers behind it.

    There is no doubt in my mind that scene was a prerendered video.

    As an example here are other things from the same year.

    [King Kong]
    [Call of Duty 2]
    [Need for Speed: Most Wanted]

    Also regarding those PS2 tech demo's they're nothing impressive at all and plenty of the later PS2 games push the console far more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Everything you just linked, however, was gameplay footage. When you have physics, and enemy A.I., and a world that is designed to be viewed from 360 degrees.

    When you cut all that "videogame" stuff out of the picture, however, and are just displaying a cutscene - with a fixed camera, in a fixed location, you only ever have to display what the camera is seeing at any given second. Go back to the image you yourself posted:

    <!--quoteo(post=553558:date=Feb 1 2011, 06:51 AM:name=Polygon Jim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Polygon Jim @ Feb 1 2011, 06:51 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=553558">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[​IMG]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The only thing present in that cutscene is what the camera can see at any given moment. It's a self-contained area created for one purpose: A cutscene.

    Also way to miss my point about the tech demos - yes, the PS2 eventually surpassed some of those tech demos, but how many years was it? Four? Five? Six? There are games that look better and run as smooth than the Sonic 2K6 "Behind closed doors" animation out today, too. The "real time" PS2 tech demos should have been impossible then, too.

    But they actually weren't. They were just tech demos of somebody going "Okay, we're gonna have this extremely detailed character model walk out, look at the camera and wink, but it's not going to chop up because she's literally the only thing on screen."

    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/jIyu4Aozwbw&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/jIyu4Aozwbw&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->

    You see what I'm getting at here?
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    No I don't get what you're getting at because that was a shitty tech demo with a very low detail character model. Most launch PS2 games surpassed those tech demos without issue because those tech demos had hardly anything on screen.


    As with 06 you just proved my point. The area in that video is not a small self contained area for a cutscene. It's a massive open field.



    I'm not saying there haven't been impressive tech demos before, but that PS2 one is a terrible example as it hardly pushes more polygons than an early Dreamcast game.

    Take this 32X tech demo for example, it pushed the hardware farther than any game I've seen.
    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/pOWZbydnlZE&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/pOWZbydnlZE&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->


    The point I'm making is the programmers at Sega during 2005 were not capable of running that in real time.
     
  9. BlazeHedgehog

    BlazeHedgehog

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    <!--quoteo(post=559167:date=Feb 15 2011, 09:07 PM:name=Polygon Jim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Polygon Jim @ Feb 15 2011, 09:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=559167">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As with 06 you just proved my point. The area in that video is not a small self contained area for a cutscene. It's a massive open field.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    As far as we can see! It's not like we can walk out there and see just how far the draw distance really is or where it stops being a polygon and starts being a skybox painting. It's not a game where we're allowed to stop and scrutinize every leaf on every tree.

    Shit, outside of a few screenshots, we don't even have direct feed footage of this animation!

    And regardless of anything else, the screenshots do not show assets that I would classify as "impossible" for 2005:

    [​IMG]
    vs.
    [​IMG]

    You are being unreasonable Mister Jim. :colbert:
     
  10. Polygon Jim

    Polygon Jim

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    I'm not being unreasonable, that video just had way to much onscreen at once. Near the end there were roughly 100-150 enemys onscreen at once along with a large open scene and a ton of particle effects. The robots alone going by the ingame model are 3400 polygons each, 150 of them is 510,000 polygons, mix the stage in with that and you have easily over 1 million probably nearing 1.5 million, then using all of those particle effects at once, and then you need to factor in the fact that when Super Sonic appeared every single robot in the scene was calculating a shadow onto the ground with Super Sonic acting as a light source and all shadows being recalculated while he moves. That being done with no lag at that time is just impossible with the programming team behind the game.


    Sega clearly wanted the video to look ingame to impress people but it's clearly prerendered.
     
  11. Mr Lange

    Mr Lange

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    <!--quoteo(post=559182:date=Feb 16 2011, 02:43 AM:name=BlazeHedgehog)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BlazeHedgehog @ Feb 16 2011, 02:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=559182">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Shit, outside of a few screenshots, we don't even have direct feed footage of this animation!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    There used to be! Sonic Stadium had it on their front page 6 years ago. That's what I've been looking for.

    Also, I doubt this will clear it up, but according to the person presenting the video at E3, "None of this is prerendered, what you are seeing is all in real time."
     
  12. Nix

    Nix

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    <!--quoteo(post=559182:date=Feb 15 2011, 07:43 PM:name=BlazeHedgehog)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BlazeHedgehog @ Feb 15 2011, 07:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=559182">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Sonic picture*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'm sorry, but are his feet backwards? That just looks awful, hell the entire video looked pretty awful, animation and everything. It's just terrible all around.
     
  13. BlazeHedgehog

    BlazeHedgehog

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    <!--quoteo(post=559190:date=Feb 15 2011, 10:03 PM:name=Polygon Jim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Polygon Jim @ Feb 15 2011, 10:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=559190">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not being unreasonable, that video just had way to much onscreen at once. Near the end there were roughly 100-150 enemys onscreen at once along with a large open scene and a ton of particle effects. The robots alone going by the ingame model are 3400 polygons each, 150 of them is 510,000 polygons, mix the stage in with that and you have easily over 1 million probably nearing 1.5 million, then using all of those particle effects at once, and then you need to factor in the fact that when Super Sonic appeared every single robot in the scene was calculating a shadow onto the ground with Super Sonic acting as a light source and all shadows being recalculated while he moves. That being done with no lag at that time is just impossible with the programming team behind the game.


    Sega clearly wanted the video to look ingame to impress people but it's clearly prerendered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Doom 3 did an entire world with stencil shadows in 2004. It ran on the original Xbox!

    Rendering real-time shadows on flat ground for the 6 robots visible on screen for that one shot is not out of the realm of possibility. Assuming they were even stencil shadows - there's plenty of rendering tricks to give the impression of stencil shadows.

    None of this seems impossible at all! It seems to me like you're just going "Sega sucks and the game EXTRA sucks so of course they couldn't have figured this out."

    That's just like, your opinion, man.
     
  14. Polygon Jim

    Polygon Jim

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    <!--quoteo(post=559212:date=Feb 15 2011, 09:53 PM:name=BlazeHedgehog)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BlazeHedgehog @ Feb 15 2011, 09:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=559212">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=559190:date=Feb 15 2011, 10:03 PM:name=Polygon Jim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Polygon Jim @ Feb 15 2011, 10:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=559190">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not being unreasonable, that video just had way to much onscreen at once. Near the end there were roughly 100-150 enemys onscreen at once along with a large open scene and a ton of particle effects. The robots alone going by the ingame model are 3400 polygons each, 150 of them is 510,000 polygons, mix the stage in with that and you have easily over 1 million probably nearing 1.5 million, then using all of those particle effects at once, and then you need to factor in the fact that when Super Sonic appeared every single robot in the scene was calculating a shadow onto the ground with Super Sonic acting as a light source and all shadows being recalculated while he moves. That being done with no lag at that time is just impossible with the programming team behind the game.


    Sega clearly wanted the video to look ingame to impress people but it's clearly prerendered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Doom 3 did an entire world with stencil shadows in 2004. It ran on the original Xbox!

    Rendering real-time shadows on flat ground for the 6 robots visible on screen for that one shot is not out of the realm of possibility. Assuming they were even stencil shadows - there's plenty of rendering tricks to give the impression of stencil shadows.

    None of this seems impossible at all! It seems to me like you're just going "Sega sucks and the game EXTRA sucks so of course they couldn't have figured this out."

    That's just like, your opinion, man.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    I think you need to go back to 1st grade.
    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/kQC82okzTXI&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/kQC82okzTXI&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->


    [​IMG]


    This is not 6.
     
  15. Biofrost

    Biofrost

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    I am with jim here, there is no way the 360 was rendering all of those shadows in game. Having dynamic lighting on that many objects in 2005? No fucking way. Tons of dynamic shadows can bring a cpu to it's knees.
     
  16. BlazeHedgehog

    BlazeHedgehog

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    <!--quoteo(post=559276:date=Feb 16 2011, 04:50 AM:name=Polygon Jim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Polygon Jim @ Feb 16 2011, 04:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=559276">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=559212:date=Feb 15 2011, 09:53 PM:name=BlazeHedgehog)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BlazeHedgehog @ Feb 15 2011, 09:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=559212">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=559190:date=Feb 15 2011, 10:03 PM:name=Polygon Jim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Polygon Jim @ Feb 15 2011, 10:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=559190">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not being unreasonable, that video just had way to much onscreen at once. Near the end there were roughly 100-150 enemys onscreen at once along with a large open scene and a ton of particle effects. The robots alone going by the ingame model are 3400 polygons each, 150 of them is 510,000 polygons, mix the stage in with that and you have easily over 1 million probably nearing 1.5 million, then using all of those particle effects at once, and then you need to factor in the fact that when Super Sonic appeared every single robot in the scene was calculating a shadow onto the ground with Super Sonic acting as a light source and all shadows being recalculated while he moves. That being done with no lag at that time is just impossible with the programming team behind the game.


    Sega clearly wanted the video to look ingame to impress people but it's clearly prerendered.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Doom 3 did an entire world with stencil shadows in 2004. It ran on the original Xbox!

    Rendering real-time shadows on flat ground for the 6 robots visible on screen for that one shot is not out of the realm of possibility. Assuming they were even stencil shadows - there's plenty of rendering tricks to give the impression of stencil shadows.

    None of this seems impossible at all! It seems to me like you're just going "Sega sucks and the game EXTRA sucks so of course they couldn't have figured this out."

    That's just like, your opinion, man.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    I think you need to go back to 1st grade.
    <!--id1--><object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/kQC82okzTXI&"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/kQC82okzTXI&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object><!--id2-->


    [​IMG]


    This is not 6.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Not in that shot, no. But look at the ground in that shot - how many shadows do you count? I don't see any. The robots aren't even self shadowing on themselves, let alone in the grass under their feet.

    Infact, pause it earlier, and you can see a little bit of trickery going on this regard:

    [​IMG]

    The first row of robots casts shadows on the ground, but the further back you get, robots stop casting shadows (it's easy to see this on the left, where you get a clear view to the furthest row of robots).

    Now, if this was pre-rendered, why would such a precaution even be necessary? It wouldn't! It would actually require a considerable amount of forethought to fool viewers by programming an artificial shadow draw distance for their "pre-rendered" video.

    You can see it happen again when the robots open fire on Sonic:

    [​IMG]

    The only object casting a shadow in this scene is Sonic, shortly before he's showered in a hail of gunfire. Robots seen around the corners of the screen aren't shadowed at all.

    Regarding the "six robots" comment, I was talking about this scene:

    [​IMG]

    Stopping and counting (instead of estimating), it's actually more like eight robots, but again, it's probably only calculating shadow data for what's currently visible on screen in this shot (eight robots on flat ground).

    What's your explanation for this?
     
  17. <!--quoteo(post=559207:date=Feb 15 2011, 08:44 PM:name=Nix)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nix @ Feb 15 2011, 08:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=559207">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=559182:date=Feb 15 2011, 07:43 PM:name=BlazeHedgehog)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BlazeHedgehog @ Feb 15 2011, 07:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=559182">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->*Sonic picture*<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'm sorry, but are his feet backwards? That just looks awful, hell the entire video looked pretty awful, animation and everything. It's just terrible all around.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Um, no... I don't think they are. I think you're probably mistaking the heels of his shoes for the white stripes. I do believe you can see a bit of the white stripe on his right shoe behind the shininess.
     
  18. Polygon Jim

    Polygon Jim

    Eternal Tech Member
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    All the bitches.
    Good Sir! If I may just bring up this little issue with you, but do you by any chance have knowledge on how exactly rendering works? If you do, would you care to disclose that knowledge to the general public so that we may see your logic behind the argument you are presenting here?
     
  19. BlazeHedgehog

    BlazeHedgehog

    A "Community Enigma"? Oldbie
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    <!--quoteo(post=559552:date=Feb 17 2011, 02:16 AM:name=Polygon Jim)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Polygon Jim @ Feb 17 2011, 02:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=559552">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Good Sir! If I may just bring up this little issue with you, but do you by any chance have knowledge on how exactly rendering works? If you do, would you care to disclose that knowledge to the general public so that we may see your logic behind the argument you are presenting here?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Haha, so now you're taking to "YEAH WELL YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT RENDERING PIPELINES" snipes?

    My claim is simply this: If this video was pre-rendered, there would be no reason to limit the number of visible shadows. They could render shadows for every object in the entire world all at once and it wouldn't matter performance-wise because the video was pre-rendered.

    By limiting the number of objects that can cast shadows based on their distance from the camera, this theoretically saves on the amount of resources required to render them. This is an optimization trick employed in many Xbox 360 and Playstation 3 games that feature dynamic shadows. It's not uncommon to see shadows for distant objects "fade in" as you get close to them. It's even a trick employed by retail version of Sonic 2k6 (only Sonic 2k6 is far more sloppy about it and shadows literally pop in to existence barely even 50ft infront of the player).

    If this was a video playing off of the HDD, such a rendering optimization would not be required. The only reason such an optimization would be implemented is if the Xbox 360 was expected to render the animated sequence in real-time.

    I know enough about 3D graphics rendering to understand that much.
     
  20. Polygon Jim

    Polygon Jim

    Eternal Tech Member
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    across town from Hinchy
    All the bitches.
    You can clearly see that everything in the scene is casting shadows. Some of it's hard to see because of how terrible the video quality is, but it's all casting shadows. The whole point of the video was to look like an ingame engine pretty much to go "Hey guys look at us, look how awesome we can push the console 10x more than every other developer even though the realtime gameplay we show you later goes at 15FPS!"
     
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